True Love's Protection

[Snark Knight]

Yes, I imagine Murphy's shade faded away when Harry "let go" of her.

I'm not done the book quite yet, so granted I might be wrong on this if there's confirmation I've yet to get to that Karrin's shade does just dissipate.

But I'd actually be kind of surprised if that's her fate.  She seems like a *prime* recruit for Uriel's Shade PD, that Harry got a brief look at in Ghost Story.  Working with the ghosts of her father and her old partner, staying in (albeit a very different theater of) the fight?  I'd be surprised if she's not inducted already, and Harry's summonings were just pulling her away from working cases.

I could see her maybe ceasing to take Harry's calls anymore if she starts to think that contact is doing more harm than good to him, though.

[Mira]

I'm not done the book quite yet, so granted I might be wrong on this if there's confirmation I've yet to get to that Karrin's shade does just dissipate.

But I'd actually be kind of surprised if that's her fate.  She seems like a *prime* recruit for Uriel's Shade PD, that Harry got a brief look at in Ghost Story.  Working with the ghosts of her father and her old partner, staying in (albeit a very different theater of) the fight?  I'd be surprised if she's not inducted already, and Harry's summonings were just pulling her away from working cases.

I could see her maybe ceasing to take Harry's calls anymore if she starts to think that contact is doing more harm than good to him, though.

  I think it's souls that work with Uriel, not shades or ghosts if they are souless..  It all gets very confusing. 

[Snark Knight]

  I think it's souls that work with Uriel, not shades or ghosts if they are souless..  It all gets very confusing.

I'm not properly sure whether Murphy pere or Carmichael were full souls or just shades, but Uriel certainly seemed to think he could use Sir Stuart.  Wasn't he a shade?  Mort said his retinue were shades, and almost any entity he encountered who thought it was the real person was just in denial.

[Mira]

I'm not properly sure whether Murphy pere or Carmichael were full souls or just shades, but Uriel certainly seemed to think he could use Sir Stuart.  Wasn't he a shade?  Mort said his retinue were shades, and almost any entity he encountered who thought it was the real person was just in denial.

Yes, still confusing!  At the end of Ghost Story when Harry thought he was moving on, if I remember correctly he thought he was going to his judgement.

Anyway, back to the true love thing, I just reread the part where Harry and Id Harry talk about why Lara didn't burn him when they kissed.  Id Harry does question it and what true feelings really were.  Nothing satisfactory.

[edf]

I'm hoping that the True Love and other burning conditions get a more satisfactory explanation later.   

My initial WAG is that the emotional residue left behind is what actually causes the burning.  That's why a wedding ring can burn even if it hasn't been worn recently.  It can soak up "love" like a certain shroud can soak up belief.   Grief may actually burn out the feelings (literally lost love) while pining for someone helps renew it.   

[LaraBeck]

Let me just point out this interview (recent) where Jim talks about the love protection.

Watch from about min 38:40 it's a couple of minutes where he talks about this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg5GxQb_rXo

Let me know your thoughts if you figure out something from it related to this, what's your interpretation.

Though, I should say, I find JB to be somewhat inconsistent lately.

[Mira]

Let me just point out this interview (recent) where Jim talks about the love protection.

Watch from about min 38:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg5GxQb_rXo

Let me know your thoughts if you figure out something from it related to this, what's your interpretation.

Though, I should say, I find JB to be somewhat inconsistent lately.

That will have to wait until later, thank you though for sending the link.  I just don't have time this morning to listen and digest it.  My personal opinion is at the beginning of the series, the whole "true love" thing sounded great and worked great for the beginning of the series, but at the same time writing that Jim sort of wrote himself into a corner.  The concept of true love burning a White Court vampire was pretty cut and dried, it has been debated extensively for years here on this forum.  Then with the Thomas/Justine thing it started to get fuzzy.  For years Thomas nibbled on Justine and that feeding helped to keep her sane and there was no burning then though it was clear that Thomas at the very least liked her very much, then in Blood Rites, she was willing to die feeding him to save his life, and he was willing to die rather than kill her by feeding her to death.  Enter true love, from then on they were a couple but went to great lengths to avoid Thomas being burned on contact, like Justine wearing a laytex suit at a nightclub so they could snuggle.  No word about sex between them, though after Harry was "killed" and Thomas was grieving, Justine comes home with a lesbian girlfriend, they have sex with paves the way for Thomas and her to have relations.  If it was that simple, why hadn't that been done after they realized they truly loved one another?  And why a lesbian?  Wouldn't a one night stand with some guy do? I just find that wierd, not intended to be a judgement about gay sex.  Also at the end of White Night, Harry practically burns Lara's lips off because he still loved Susan and hadn't been with another woman for five years since she left.  What I am saying is Jim's original concept of the true love's protection thing was really cool, down to touching a wedding ring or a rose given in true love burning.. However jump ahead twenty years, true love really gets in the way of the narrative, especially after all the build up to Harry and Murphy, her dying violently in Harry's arms, and him very much grieving for her in Twelve Months.  As the saying goes, please Jim don't pee up our backs and call it rain!  I do understand he had created a problem for himself, and in order to move on with the story which now means Harry has to have a close relationship with Lara could only come up with some very lame excuses as to why it didn't burn when she kissed him.. Jim shouldn't have tried, in my opinion.  Yeah, other problems, like the very good questions Harry's Id was asking him, was it really true love between him and Murphy?  Or just seemed that way?  Of course that would have pissed off the H/M shippers, but would have made sense in a lot of ways.. Or could just a doubt about truly loving Murphy or vice versa do it? 

[LaraBeck]

Yeah, again, to me, trying to push the narrative toward a relationship between Harry and Lara, either if it turns romantic or if it's just about Harry getting "a taste of sexy", is doing a number of things to the overall story that Jim is not handling well, or at least, is not coming through to some of us, this matter feels very retconny. I find it disingenuous

[Dina]

Things would have been easier if Harry had not burnt Lara in PT/BG. Not True Love. But since it happened, the easiest way to deal with it was not to have the long kiss scene in TM. Have Lara began feeding and then burn. She still would have tasted Harry and liked it and the rest of the book would be more or less the same, only the sexy scene with all its effect in Harry's mind would be shorter.

[LaraBeck]

Things would have been easier if Harry had not burnt Lara in PT/BG. Not True Love. But since it happened, the easiest way to deal with it was not to have the long kiss scene in TM. Have Lara began feeding and then burn. She still would have tasted Harry and liked it and the rest of the book would be more or less the same, only the sexy scene with all its effect in Harry's mind would be shorter.

Yes, that would have worked.

Honestly, I think many of us would have been so disappointed if Harry had not burned Lara in Peace Talks, I mean, it was him and Murphy, hard to believe they wouldn't have True Love™ all things considered. And in a book that is mostly about Harry mourning the woman he loved as Twelve Months was, it is hard to have that love being so questioned now by things that could have been fixed in a different way, because Lara being "sated" doesn't really work and Mab's explanation of Harry's self-loathing doesn't either. It's like we keep adding insult to the injury that was Murphy's death, because we (Jim) is rushing this situationship with Lara. I dunno, I've heard people saying that's the point, that it is on purpose, perhaps I'd believe that if Harry wasn't so lustful toward her or worse, was trying so hard to justify trusting her.

[Dina]

Well, my experience is different. I never believed Harry loved Murphy, at least not True Love, so I was surprised when he actually burnt Lara. I always thought their love was the love of a dear friend or sibling. More than many romantic loves, granted, but not True Love.

[LaraBeck]

Well, my experience is different. I never believed Harry loved Murphy, at least not True Love, so I was surprised when he actually burnt Lara. I always thought their love was the love of a dear friend or sibling. More than many romantic loves, granted, but not True Love.

Hm, I'm shook. I would understand to some level the "they were better friends than lovers" that some readers feel about them, regardless of my shipping heart, but I don't think they ever read as siblings or just friends. Interesting.

[Dina]

By Changes, I had the theory that someone was playing tricks with Harry's mind, making him believe that he was in love with Karrin when he was not. In my opinion, he talked too much.

[Bad Alias]

Watch from about min 38:40 it's a couple of minutes where he talks about this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg5GxQb_rXo

He does say that Susan is still out there. Murphy isn't. He does say Susan is still out there and Harry still pines for her. So maybe the person has to be alive and there has to be a certain present emotional stance towards them. Jim said Harry didn't know about Maggie. That suggests that knowing about Maggie would change his emotional stance enough to break the protection.

This lends validity to what Mab says in 12 Months about Harry's feelings being the reason he isn't protected anymore. It's probably several factors all working together that determines protection. In Blood Rites we saw that Harry was less protected than Arturo because Harry hadn't been with Susan for a long time. So time is probably another factor.

[LaraBeck]

Jim said Harry didn't know about Maggie. That suggests that knowing about Maggie would change his emotional stance enough to break the protection.

Now that is an interesting point. Harry definitely feels way different about Susan after he learns about Maggie, so I think you might be onto something. And indeed, in that case Mab's explanation could, potentially (though I'm still not 100% on board) maybe work.

I thought it was so Harry though, when he asked Mab if she was saying that death defeats love, because it's obviously a Princess Bride reference. I think, of all the excuses, like Harry here, I don't want to believe that death changes the protection, though. That's so depressing. I'd say Harry's self-loathing, his (IMO) self-centerness in his grief, his guilt, and how belief tends to work in the Dresden universe would be slightly more convincing a reason for why the True Love™ protection goes away. Though still a cheap excuse. If that were the case though, if Harry starts to feel better about it, if he embraces Murphy's memory, would the protection return? Probably not.

I will say this, too, that I found a bit hard to digest in this book: I don't have a problem with Harry grieving, I'll start with that, it was necessary, it is raw and it is painful. I wished we had seen a little less of "Karrin is dead and oh how much this hurts me" and more "Karrin is dead and that's unfair because Karrin was x, y and z" I mean, he tells us more times how wonderful Michael is in any of the books than he thinks about Murphy in this one, when it'd be the appropriate book to do it. There's a lot of things that you feel when you lose someone, yes, guilt, anger, denial, but also longing, and the memories of the best about them replay in your head making you miss them more, want them more. I felt there wasn't enough longing or enough memories. And I still can't believe we didn't learn when her birthday was in a full year of story.