The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Can we see Rudy take up a sword
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on December 12, 2025, 01:15:35 PM --- ... It wasn't angels that stopped Harry in that moment, it was his very human friends who stopped him, true they were better equipped, but in the end it was his very human friends risking injury to stop their very upset, but powerful and dangerous friend from doing something he'd regret later, and in the end harm their cause ...
--- End quote ---
Yes, his friends were there, and worked to stop him... risked themselves to stop him!
But the angelic power of Fidelacchius came to bear against Harry... and that doesn't happen for mortals making purely-mortal choices. The fact that Fidelacchius' miraculous powers manifested: this says that the supernatural is misbehaving in that scene; that mortal free-will is compromised (and/or that mortals are facing supernatural might, that mortal flesh and bone alone cannot match)
And the fact that both (aka "all" at this point) the knights took to the field... that's more ambiguous, but a good reason to at least suspect the culprit is Denarians; that I can recall, the only other multi-Knight action we've seen was later against Ethniu herself (who solo'ed against Mab+Odin+WhiteCouncil)... and previously, against Denarians. I repeat that the WK mantle is "enough" supernatural influence to justify a KotC involvement; I think it more-likely. We don't have to demand Denarian presence... but. There is that niggle...
It just gives me pause: nothing called for Jim to write it that way. Harry could have looked down at a fallen and bleeding Sanya, and come to his senses... without bringing in Butters, or Fidelacchius. He could have had Butters show up, and not use Fidelacchius. It would have been a much more "human" moment; but Jim specifically invoked the Angelic.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Yes, his friends were there, and worked to stop him... risked themselves to stop him!
--- End quote ---
Willingly like any friend would do. You will notice that they also forgave any hurt and understood.
--- Quote ---But the angelic power of Fidelacchius came to bear against Harry... and that doesn't happen for mortals making purely-mortal choices. The fact that Fidelacchius' miraculous powers manifested: this says that the supernatural is misbehaving in that scene; that mortal free-will is compromised (and/or that mortals are facing supernatural might, that mortal flesh and bone alone cannot match)
--- End quote ---
It was a warning, Harry took it as a warning, Harry was ashamed and didn't forget. In other words a strong warning, and then Harry went on to try and redeem himself. That's the point.
--- Quote ---It just gives me pause: nothing called for Jim to write it that way. Harry could have looked down at a fallen and bleeding Sanya, and come to his senses... without bringing in Butters, or Fidelacchius. He could have had Butters show up, and not use Fidelacchius. It would have been a much more "human" moment; but Jim specifically invoked the Angelic.
--- End quote ---
Or very realistic, between his adrenalin and the Winter Knight's mantle Harry wasn't going to come to his senses that easily or quickly after seeing his beloved murdered and bleeding out in his arms.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on December 13, 2025, 07:36:27 PM --- ... It was a warning, Harry took it as a warning, Harry was ashamed and didn't forget. In other words a strong warning, and then Harry went on to try and redeem himself. That's the point ...
--- End quote ---
No; the point is that Angels don't do that.
They do not "step in" that way, not even to "warn:" not with an unambiguous Angelic-caliber "thou shalt not," not to influence mortals' free will.
That the Sword did burn Harry can only be a "warning" that a Spookyside "bad actor" is acting upon Harry; that his free will isn't entirely his own. A free-willed mortal choice does not get an Angelic response or intervention.
--- Quote from: Mira on December 13, 2025, 07:36:27 PM --- ... Or very realistic, between his adrenalin and the Winter Knight's mantle Harry wasn't going to come to his senses that easily or quickly after seeing his beloved murdered and bleeding out in his arms.
--- End quote ---
Hypothetically, the WK-mantle influence may indeed be sufficient to get a KotC/Angelic intervention.
...
Maybe...
But ...
1/ But also, nope -- Harry already made that choice, and now has to live with the consequences. When he chose to take on the WK-mantle, Harry chose chose to eventually become a monster. The Angels (once again) do not intervene/warn when mortals have made their choice. You might argue that some mortal may have been "tricked" into taking up a Knight-mantle without understanding how it could mess with their head; but Harry knew it would happen, fully accepted that it would (as it turns out, he has a slim chance not to become a monster!).
2/ But also, why both(all) of the Knights? We really don't see more than one KotC stepping into a fight for "just any" supernatural threat; and as "threats" go, a faerie Knight isn't exactly top-tier! The most-obvious answer to "why are all the KotC's in that fight?" is "because they are fighting the KotC-archfoe, the Denarians."
= = =
I want to reiterate, here, that my "Denarian Hypothesis" here is actually my #2 choice, not my #1.
I think "it was just the WK-Mantle (with no Denarians) that triggered/enabled the Sword to act" is a better argument. .. but also, I think there is a decent argument -- with supporting Dresdenverse lore -- to make a solid case for a Denarian Shadow to be involved.
Mira:
--- Quote ---No; the point is that Angels don't do that.
They do not "step in" that way, not even to "warn:" not with an unambiguous Angelic-caliber "thou shalt not," not to influence mortals' free will.
That the Sword did burn Harry can only be a "warning" that a Spookyside "bad actor" is acting upon Harry; that his free will isn't entirely his own. A free-willed mortal choice does not get an Angelic response or intervention.
--- End quote ---
Angels warn all of the time, they also test. A warning really doesn't interfere with free will, a warning is a warning, but it's up to Harry as to how he is going to react to that warning.. It's still all about free will, it's Harry who decides how he wants to react, not outside influences making him do anything.
--- Quote ---1/ But also, nope -- Harry already made that choice, and now has to live with the consequences. When he chose to take on the WK-mantle, Harry chose chose to eventually become a monster. The Angels (once again) do not intervene/warn when mortals have made their choice. You might argue that some mortal may have been "tricked" into taking up a Knight-mantle without understanding how it could mess with their head; but Harry knew it would happen, fully accepted that it would (as it turns out, he has a slim chance not to become a monster!).
--- End quote ---
Yes, Harry took the least bad choice out of a number of very bad choices to save his daughter. However becoming the Winter Knight doesn't mean he will automatically become a monster, those choices are still up to him no matter the influences of the mantle and the demands of Mab. That's what Uriel's words were all about.
--- Quote ---I think "it was just the WK-Mantle (with no Denarians) that triggered/enabled the Sword to act" is a better argument. .. but also, I think there is a decent argument -- with supporting Dresdenverse lore -- to make a solid case for a Denarian Shadow to be involved.
--- End quote ---
I think we have to just disagree on that..
Lehane:
I had recalled reading something about Rudy similar to this from the 2025 Dragoncon transcript.
"If Harry successfully killed Nic, would Rudolph be a good host for Anduriel? No. Nobody likes Rudolph. Even the Fallen are like 'That guy? Give me something better to work with'. Nic is a main series villain, Harry will be dealing with him till the end, take that for what you will. " [From the Transcript on Reddit].
Also just for everyone's amusement, when I asked Google to search for this transcript the A.I. gave me this:
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In the Dresden Files book Battle Ground, the character Rudolph is unable to pick up a Denarian coin because he has lost his free will and soul due to psychic manipulation, making him an unsuitable host for a Fallen angel.
Here is a breakdown of the events and the reasoning:
The Incident: During the battle against Ethniu, a Denarian known as Blood on His Soul (who manifests as a bear demon) is defeated. After its host is killed, the Denarian coin is left on the ground.
Rudolph's Attempt: Detective Rudolph tries to pick up the coin, likely tempted by the power it offers, but he is unable to grab it.
The Reason: The coins of the Fallen Angels of the Order of the Blackened Denarius can only be willingly taken up by a mortal with a functioning free will and soul. Rudolph had previously been a victim of psychic manipulation by a Nightmare (Kravos) and later by the agents of the Red Court (Esmeralda and Esteban Batiste), which left his psyche broken and him without free will.
Implications: Because Rudolph was essentially a puppet and lacked the free will required to make the choice to accept the coin, the coin "rejected" him. This demonstrated the extent of his mental and spiritual damage and confirmed that the coins require a genuine choice and soul to inhabit a host.
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This wasn't in the copy of Battleground that I read...
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