Out Law, novella (?)

[g33k]

Or if it walks like a duck..... Or Sanya plays lip service to it for his own reasons, but the Almighty and the angel in charge of his Sword knows what is really in his heart.  I suspect the latter..

He doesn't have to believe.
He just has to be really, deeply, good... all the way down (and strong enough to bear the burden).

Just like Butters, whose Faith is evidently Jedi not Christian.

[Mira]

He doesn't have to believe.
He just has to be really, deeply, good... all the way down (and strong enough to bear the burden).

Just like Butters, whose Faith is evidently Jedi not Christian.

  I believe that is what I am saying.  However as far as Butters goes, he is Jewish I believe, and his faith in his religion and or heritage could be very strong. 

Back to the deep down point about Marcone, there was that little bit that Harry couldn't get to in the soul gaze.  There is that little bit that feels guilt and remorse over hurting a child.  That little bit says that redemption isn't totally out of the question for Marcone.

[g33k]

... Back to the deep down point about Marcone, there was that little bit that Harry couldn't get to in the soul gaze.  There is that little bit that feels guilt and remorse over hurting a child.  That little bit says that redemption isn't totally out of the question for Marcone.

There's also the scene in the Raith Deeps:  Harry asks him to help rescue the innocents, and Marcone responds "who do you think I am?!"  Harry replies, "Someone who can help.  Maybe the only person who can help.  Please, John."  And Harry gets through to him.

A redemption-arc for Marcone isn't out of the question.


Picture a scene in the BAT where Marcone is fighting (with Thorny's backing) against Outsiders.

Marcone has his back up hard against the wall, no viable escape (despite having Thorny in his pocket), about to die.

Dresden says to Marcone, "You know John, the deal with the Fallen isn't the only deal on the table..." and he offers Marcone the hilt of Amoracchius.

[Mira]

Dresden says to Marcone, "You know John, the deal with the Fallen isn't the only deal on the table..." and he offers Marcone the hilt of Amoracchius.

That would be so cool.

[RobReece]

I agree

[Snark Knight]

Yes, he does like to be his own man and also likes his power and his own little empire.  Namshiel will have to manage him so that Marcone believes he is calling the shots.  This basically is what Andriel has done with Nic, he buys that it is an equal partnership. Something Harry never bought when Lasciel offered it, but will Marcone see through it?

Namshiel's character and motivation is an area I'm actually quite curious about.  What we saw of him in SmF as one of the Fallen who dominates the host and was pretty firmly in Tessa's camp seems contradictory to later WoJ that he's basically the magic nerd and a bit of a loner from the other Fallen who mostly just wants to refine his experiments.  The latter sounds like he would have been a pretty good fit for Harry, if Nic had had his coin available instead of Lasciel's.

Then again, he also got pretty badly burned by Tessa and Rosanna - they betrayed him and left him to be un-hosted. I think they were hoping he'd stay coin-bound as long as possible in the assumption he was nem-fected, as cover for one or both of them being the actual 'Judas' as Nic put it.

Is he long-gaming a plan to dominate Marcone, or has he made a strategic choice that his bridges are well and truly burned with the other 29, and an actual alliance with Marcone is in his interest?

[g33k]

... What we saw of him in SmF as one of the Fallen who dominates the host and was pretty firmly in Tessa's camp seems contradictory to later WoJ that he's basically the magic nerd and a bit of a loner from the other Fallen who mostly just wants to refine his experiments ...

I think sometimes the Fallen end up with a largely-useless host, from their own POV.  I suppose that might be just a mistake/mis-estimation on their part, or ignorance (being essentially blind and deaf in their coins, possibly unable to discern the qualities of their potential host).

These hosts can't help the Fallen in any way, advance their agenda, etc; instead they can only drag them down.

When we first met Thorny, he may have been burdened with such a host, and gone "fuck it, just gonna need to meatpuppet this one."  Thorny may simply have found a more-apt partnership with Marcone.

Similarly, I suspect that alliances amongst the Fallen are kind of fluid and context-dependent; Thorny (I suspect) wasn't "firmly" in Tessa's camp, he was there as a matter of convenience or opportunity, maybe for a specific project with a shared agenda, etc.  He may even  have been a spy in Tessa's camp, passing info to another of the Fallen.

[Dina]

Yes. I imagine the relationship Fallen-host is more complex than what we first imagined. I wonder if Marcone took some safe measures. Perhaps he found how to make a special, safer deal, or something. Marcone is a real impressive person and he has a lot of recourses, so he could have found things your average host could never know.

[Mira]

Yes. I imagine the relationship Fallen-host is more complex than what we first imagined. I wonder if Marcone took some safe measures. Perhaps he found how to make a special, safer deal, or something. Marcone is a real impressive person and he has a lot of recourses, so he could have found things your average host could never know.

I think Namshiel is going to find himself having similar problems to the ones that Lasciel had with Harry.  The reasons might be slightly different, but the outcomes could very well be the same.  Because of that first soul gaze, Harry was immediately put on his guard after he realized what was in his head.  Harry prides himself on his will, and it is very strong whether it is because he is star born or not who knows?  Because of his will Harry was able to use Lasciel and remain himself, though it was a close thing.  It wasn't to Murphy confronted him as to how he seemed to be changing that Harry realized it as well, after that Lasciel got nowhere.  Point of fact, Harry turned the tables and the Shadow became Lash.  In Marcone's case, he took up the coin I imagine for power.  Ever since Harry blew the door off his bar I think Marcone has lusted to have the power of a wizard.  Marcone wants more than that though, he remains a mob boss, he wants to call the shots. I think we saw some of that in Battle Ground, saving Harry was more a Marcone call and not a Namshiel call.  Also if Marcone ultimately rejects the coin, will his wizard skills remain?   

[Dina]

I suspect without the coin Marcone would have less raw power, but he would be a wizard still, because he would have learnt how to do magic. He would be one of those wizards with much more finesse than raw power.
BUT, I actually don't think we would see Marcone rejecting the coin. I would guess JB is planning to have coin-host Marcone as a key player in the BAT. Just my bet, at least.

[EBRIEN]

Regarding Marcone without Namshiel----I think he wouldn't really have any power. Previously, he hadn't shown any predisposition to having any magical capability, but rather, surrounded himself with those with knowledge and power--specifically Gard. If anything, I think he's probably like Butters in that he has a capacity to put things together with guidance from Namshiel in the same way Butters does with Bob. He's a vanilla mortal with the power he's acquired as a powerful human (mob boss and more) that recognized he needed to power up to hold his position as one who signed on as a Baron on the Accords---possibly as a reaction to Harry's ever-increasing power--knowing that one day, Dresden would be coming for him. This doesn't preclude the possibility that he'll eventually learn enough or put enough goodies together to be a passable sorcerer, but on his own, never a WC level capital W Wizard. I think as a plot device, it keeps things interesting for Dresden because Marcone figures into the BAT or something. He's kinda like Batman--Ultimately a badass, but still human. (Extra super scary with Namshiel.)

Anyway--Just my 2 cents.

Cheers and Best!

B

[Mira]

Regarding Marcone without Namshiel----I think he wouldn't really have any power. Previously, he hadn't shown any predisposition to having any magical capability, but rather, surrounded himself with those with knowledge and power--specifically Gard. If anything, I think he's probably like Butters in that he has a capacity to put things together with guidance from Namshiel in the same way Butters does with Bob. He's a vanilla mortal with the power he's acquired as a powerful human (mob boss and more) that recognized he needed to power up to hold his position as one who signed on as a Baron on the Accords---possibly as a reaction to Harry's ever-increasing power--knowing that one day, Dresden would be coming for him. This doesn't preclude the possibility that he'll eventually learn enough or put enough goodies together to be a passable sorcerer, but on his own, never a WC level capital W Wizard. I think as a plot device, it keeps things interesting for Dresden because Marcone figures into the BAT or something. He's kinda like Batman--Ultimately a badass, but still human. (Extra super scary with Namshiel.)

Anyway--Just my 2 cents.

Cheers and Best!

B

I totally agree, those are my thoughts as well.  In that light if Marcone does decide to give up the coin, it will be a huge sacrifice for him.  Given that, it could lead to him becomming a Knight, but that all remains to be seen.

[Tinfoil hat]

I totally agree, those are my thoughts as well.  In that light if Marcone does decide to give up the coin, it will be a huge sacrifice for him.  Given that, it could lead to him becomming a Knight, but that all remains to be seen.

I agree with Nammy Marcone is at best extremely low level talent. But Jim has said that power increases with age. I think snake boy was a small power but thanks to the fallen and long live after centuries when he lost the coin he could still do some magic

[Mira]

I agree with Nammy Marcone is at best extremely low level talent. But Jim has said that power increases with age. I think snake boy was a small power but thanks to the fallen and long live after centuries when he lost the coin he could still do some magic

But doing some magic isn't exactly like being a wizard or sorcerer, the demotion would be very noticable.