The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Ghost Story--two things
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on July 08, 2025, 02:40:56 PM --- ... Also we have the word of Lash, "she found the strength to leave Lord Raith for a reason.." No, the only thing that makes sense given all the information, is Margaret met and fell in love with Malcolm before she left Lord Raith ...
--- End quote ---
I really don't think so: bluntly, this is nowhere supported in the text; it appears that you want Margaret's love for Malcolm to have been the critical element for her to leave Raith, but that's you reading-in something that isn't there, adding 2+2 to get 5, via your own +1.
The best info I can find is from the "official timeline":
--- Quote ---~26-27 BSF: Thomas is given a pentacle necklace on his fifth birthday. His mother escapes Lord Raith.
26 BSF: Maggie LeFay meets Malcolm Dresden.
--- End quote ---
-- https://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline
Which, while close-set in terms of timing, clearly places "... escapes Lord Raith" as a separate event occurring prior to "Maggie meets Malcolm."
There is a separate, unofficial fan timeline here:
https://websiteofahistoricalpolymath.wordpress.com/timelines/time-line-of-the-harry-dresden-universe/
which specifically cites "Blood Rites" as the source, and (tentatively) places 1968 as the year Margaret left Raith, and 1969 as the year she met Malcolm.
I am almost certain I've read somewhere in WoJ's (or seen in AMA event video) that Jim has explicitly stated this; but I cannot find it at the moment.
Lash -- as "Lasciel's Shadow" -- was created with access to a tremendous number of secrets and hidden/occult information, things that "mere mortals" might rarely or never discover... things like "Fate" and "Destiny." There may very well have been "portents" and "omens" and such-like, well-known to the Fallen, about Margaret LeFay giving birth to a Starborn.
Lasciel is rather less cognizant of things like genuine love, genuinely good people. Genuine love & goodness -- as the Shadow was formulated, the info it/she was created with -- would have been baffling, irrelevant.
Mira:
--- Quote ----- https://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline
Which, while close-set in terms of timing, clearly places "... escapes Lord Raith" as a separate event occurring prior to "Maggie meets Malcolm."
There is a separate, unofficial fan timeline here:
https://websiteofahistoricalpolymath.wordpress.com/timelines/time-line-of-the-harry-dresden-universe/
which specifically cites "Blood Rites" as the source, and (tentatively) places 1968 as the year Margaret left Raith, and 1969 as the year she met Malcolm.
I am almost certain I've read somewhere in WoJ's (or seen in AMA event video) that Jim has explicitly stated this; but I cannot find it at the moment.
--- End quote ---
However the "offical or unoffical" doesn't have any evidence either, not in the text. It's a guess, Eb doesn't tell Harry that Margaret left Raith in 1968 and met Malcolm in 1969. Margaret in the soul gaze doesn't tell Harry she left Lord Raith and then met Malcolm and fell in love.. None of that is written in Blood Rites, if you can find it please give it to me.. Otherwise its a guess, just like my speculation is..
--- Quote ---Mira, this isn't a bad argument. You could be correct. However, I think there is another possibility to consider. Something happened that allowed for Margaret to have an epiphany or see the light, whatever metaphorical expression you wish to choose. Could Uriel have been involved? It's possible and even makes sense, but let me get back to the main story. Margaret finally sees through to the end game of the scheme she was working on with Lord Raith and Duchess Ariana. We could say Margarite finally sees Raith for what he really is or discovers his connection to the Outsiders and perceives their plan. Either explanation works, but the scales fall from Margarete's eyes and she understands that first she must get away. She can't think through a plan to counter what she set in motion until she escapes.
--- End quote ---
Yes, that is also possible..
I can also buy that conceiving a star born would be or could be part of the White Court plan.... I also think that it could have been very much a White Council plan, you gotta admit they are less than transparent on this little fact. Though they toss out plenty of hints...
Okay, it's very hot and humid here and my brain is par boiled.. Here is a crazy theory to hang onto your tin foil hats boys and girls...
The star born skeem was actually hatched in an agreement between the White Court and the White Council, and Margaret was the designated incubator with Lord Raith as daddy... This could be one of the reasons why Eb almost irrationally hates vampires, or maybe just vampires of the White Court. What is strange is there was a time when Eb would dine with Lord Raith, Arrianna, and Margaret, so he didn't always hate them.
Talby16:
--- Quote from: Mira on July 26, 2025, 08:03:39 PM ---However the "offical or unoffical" doesn't have any evidence either, not in the text. It's a guess, Eb doesn't tell Harry that Margaret left Raith in 1968 and met Malcolm in 1969. Margaret in the soul gaze doesn't tell Harry she left Lord Raith and then met Malcolm and fell in love.. None of that is written in Blood Rites, if you can find it please give it to me.. Otherwise its a guess, just like my speculation is.. Yes, that is also possible..
--- End quote ---
The official timeline does not need evidence in the text. Is it based upon speculation and guesswork? Yes, but it is official because Jim has given it his blessing and hosted it on his website. It is not completely filled in, but what is present is accurate according to Jim at this time. He can always contradict or change it later, but for now that time line is considered canon.
--- Quote from: Mira on July 26, 2025, 08:03:39 PM ---Okay, it's very hot and humid here and my brain is par boiled.. Here is a crazy theory to hang onto your tin foil hats boys and girls...
The star born skeem was actually hatched in an agreement between the White Court and the White Council, and Margaret was the designated incubator with Lord Raith as daddy... This could be one of the reasons why Eb almost irrationally hates vampires, or maybe just vampires of the White Court. What is strange is there was a time when Eb would dine with Lord Raith, Arrianna, and Margaret, so he didn't always hate them.
--- End quote ---
I doubt that the White Council and White Court would scheme together. The White Court views vampires with distrust since they can corrupt and convert human wizards. The White Council, as the guardians of humanity, are naturally set against all other forces that seek to control/enslave/destroy humanity. Elaine and Harry are both starborn with two mortal parents. There is no reason for Maggie Sr to intentionally have a child with a white court vampire to create a starborn. Why would the White Council want a starborn that another group/organization has claim/influence over. Especially an organization that can bend others to their will like the White Council. Ebeneezer hates the White Court because Lord Raith killed his daughter. There is no need to find another motive for his hatred.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I doubt that the White Council and White Court would scheme together. The White Court views vampires with distrust since they can corrupt and convert human wizards. The White Council, as the guardians of humanity, are naturally set against all other forces that seek to control/enslave/destroy humanity. Elaine and Harry are both starborn with two mortal parents. There is no reason for Maggie Sr to intentionally have a child with a white court vampire to create a starborn. Why would the White Council want a starborn that another group/organization has claim/influence over. Especially an organization that can bend others to their will like the White Council. Ebeneezer hates the White Court because Lord Raith killed his daughter. There is no need to find another motive for his hatred.
--- End quote ---
As of now, there is no proof that Elaine is star born.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 02, 2025, 08:26:51 PM ---As of now, there is no proof that Elaine is star born.
--- End quote ---
You are correct.
Jim has been very cagey when pressed on this issue; she "has the potential" but I haven't seen (or read) him ever spilling those beans and confirming that she is, or denying it... it's entirely possible that he has different storylines in mind and hasn't even decided!!!
That DuMorne had (secretly) gotten hold of two "potential" Starborn without someone engaging in major chicanery strains and then shatters the bounds of credulity!
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