Two plus two is Starborn

[KurtinStGeorge]

A couple of years ago I was going to start a thread about the times Harry has thought about something and then had another character repeat the same or very similar phrase back to him.  I found a Word doc I wrote on the subject, but I don't remember if I ever actually posted it.

I can think of three distinct times this has happened but perhaps there have been others that I missed.  In Cold Days Harry has this random thought that two plus two can't equal five; except under near impossible or irrational conditions, then near the end of the novel, just when Maeve thinks she has won and starts to aim her gun at Harry she says, "Two plus two is five."

In Dead Beat Harry says to himself, "You don't get to be the Merlin of the White Council by collecting bottle caps" only to have Carlos Ramirez say the exact same phrase back to him a few paragraphs later.

In Death Masks, Harry talks about the difference between "fun time handcuffs" and real handcuffs when he first meets Anna Valmont, only to have Molly Carpenter mention "fun time" handcuffs in another chapter.

I have never been able to come up with a reasonable explanation for these coincidences, until now.  What if part of Harry's starborn powers go beyond having influence over Outsiders.  What if Harry can mentally influence his fellow mortals?  Not in the way Molly can read and control people's minds.  It would be a very subtle talent and probably not one that would have a recognizable magical signature.  If this is the case, during those rare occasions when Harry has manifested this talent, he's done so without realizing it. 

If Harry did become aware that he has this ability; well, I'm pretty sure the White Council wouldn't like it.  Even if Harry simply used it to send an important message in a covert manner, most Council members would probably be suspicious of Harry's motives.  This might explain or at least partially explain why Senior Council members are reluctant to tell Harry what it means to be Starborn.   

[Mira]

 That is an intriguing possibility, here is another aspect of what you are suggesting, it isn't just his friends that are repeating this back but his foes as well.  So what if it isn't an ability that Harry has as a star born, but that he is being watched?  By who, whom, what or how, we have no clue as yet..  Who or what has the ability to follow Harry close enough undetected to be able to report back to his friends and foes what Harry is saying?  Since free will is a huge theme of the series, my vote goes to both Heaven and Hell, both have a huge interest in the final BAT. 

Or the simplest explanation?  It's simply an author's ploy to make for more drama, as in a critical moment Maeve repeating back to Harry about things not adding up and they didn't.  Yeah, I know, cheap shot..

[peterwiggin94]

I've been thinking about this a lot and this makes a lot of sense that this would happen sometimes. Any being sensitive to thoughts may accidentally or purposedly repeat phrases like this as a way to be persuasive. Molly is a very sensitive person so it makes sense that she would be able to do it. While I suppose we could make the same argument about Maeve and Ramirez because they're magic users, I think there's another intriguing possibility: Carlos and Maeve were both infected by Nemesis and did it on accident.

Maeve being Nemfected a strong possibility given that she almost blew up Demonreach and that was the explicit goal of Nemesis in Battle Ground. She was also the very first target of the Starborn Winter Knight.

I think that there's a decent argument for Carlos too. First, we know that Justine was Nemfected and had to be infected by someone. Carlos had a few minutes next to her in White Night while Harry was listening to the WCV debate the merits of the crusade against low talent wizards. This was also around when Justine became close to Lara. Second, we know that Carlos was nearby a Cthulhu cult in Cold Case. He says that he got a report from Elaine to check it out but that's an easy cover story to make up. Third, we know that at least one shadowy organization tasked an attractive, respected, and talented White Council Warden to become close to Dresden in order to keep an eye on him. Would it be strange for another party to do something similar? Fourth, isn't it weird that several experienced Wardens fought Black Court Vampires in Battle Ground and only Harry and Carlos survived? Fifth, isn't it odd that several of the stories he prominently features include Outsiders? War Cry, White Night, Proven Guilty, Cold Case, and Battle Ground/Peace Talks all have Carlos and all have Outsiders. The only one with a lot of Carlos but no obvious Outsider influence is Dead Beat. That one is centered on a conflict with Kemmler's disciples but would it shock you to discover Kemmler made a deal with Outsiders? Maybe one Kemmler's disciples was Nemfected and that's how Carlos got Nemfected. Sixth, he's repeatedly mentioned as the youngest to every reach Warden Commander. It wouldn't be surprising if the Outsider gave him help to accomplish it.

[Dina]

I am almost sure that there was other similar moment with Marcone, that could be atributed to "great minds..." but also to magic if Marcone had the coin. I would need to reread the series, what I really have no time to do.

My fragile memory aside, I agree with KurtinStGeorge. And it also made me think, what if one of the reasons everyone is so reluctant about telling Harry what it means to be a starborn is that being aware of that could change the powers themselves? Like when a watcher changes the result of an experiment just because it watches. The other option, of course, it is that knowing how powerful one can be could be very tempting. Almost like a coin. And we know that Harry could resist that allure.

[g33k]

The "Bottle caps" remark in particular is one I'm pretty sure I've seen a bunch.
If anyone has the whole text of the DF series in searchable document form, I'd be interested to see how many times that occurs, and who says it

I have an alternative theory to suggest:  what if it's early-stage foretelling?  A turn of phrase  that Harry subconsciously foresees being spoken, and "sticks in his mind" before it even happens...

[EBRIEN]

Also, I wonder if it cold be tied to Harry's habit of naming things and people. Just look at Toot and how he's grown as Harry has given him more responsibility along with the different titles. Word-O-Mancy?

[BassetFamily]

Ebrien, I’ve thought for some time that Harry’s naming characters has some importance to the story.  Remember when Harry dropped “El” from Mr Sunshine’s name or when he shortened the Earlking’s name to Earl?  Those characters were quick to react and did not think the matter inconsequential.  Giving Toot and Demonreach names has had significant consequences.  I suspect Harry’s naming these characters gives him some ability to define their natures.

Having said that, returning to the thread topic, I prefer g33k’s concept that Harry is prescient to the idea that he is broadcasting his thoughts.  Broadcasting his thoughts, even if restricted to certain “sensitive” individuals, could be a distinct weakness for Harry.  And outside the phrase repetition, there is no evidence I can recall of Harry’s enemies knowing what he is thinking.  For example, none of Harry’s companions in Skin Game seemed to be aware of his arrangement with Goodman Grey.

[Mira]

Having said that, returning to the thread topic, I prefer g33k’s concept that Harry is prescient to the idea that he is broadcasting his thoughts.  Broadcasting his thoughts, even if restricted to certain “sensitive” individuals, could be a distinct weakness for Harry.  And outside the phrase repetition, there is no evidence I can recall of Harry’s enemies knowing what he is thinking.  For example, none of Harry’s companions in Skin Game seemed to be aware of his arrangement with Goodman Grey.

They didn't know about the arrangement with Goodman Grey because they were made at Mac's Bar with special security blockers put on by Mab.

[Talby16]

We know that wizards develop some level of Sight as described as Luccio in Small Favor. Wizards develop some level of precognizance as they mature. Harry recognized his with the familiarity with the island. What if it has been stirring before that and part of it is awareness of phrases that will be said in the near future.

[peterwiggin94]

As much as it disagrees with my own hypothesis, Harry developing future sight would explain several of these. Molly's description of "fun time handcuffs" feels the most like a possible coincidence. The other two are possible cases of Harry's future sight especially Cold Days. That one includes several cases of timey wimey shenanigans so Harry having minor examples of future would make sense. Plus, Harry's first example of future sight involved the island so it seems likely that he would have minor examples involving it.

However, I still prefer my theory (all credit to OP) because Jim dropping hints about Nemesis's telepathy just feels so cool to me.

[Talby16]

As much as it disagrees with my own hypothesis, Harry developing future sight would explain several of these. Molly's description of "fun time handcuffs" feels the most like a possible coincidence. The other two are possible cases of Harry's future sight especially Cold Days. That one includes several cases of timey wimey shenanigans so Harry having minor examples of future would make sense. Plus, Harry's first example of future sight involved the island so it seems likely that he would have minor examples involving it.

However, I still prefer my theory (all credit to OP) because Jim dropping hints about Nemesis's telepathy just feels so cool to me.

A small bounce off of what you said. Another possibility is some resonance with Harry's time travel. We know in a future book that he will be revisiting prior events. Maybe his presence in the past with his future knowledge combines with something like his Sight to allow him to pick those phrases up in the past from his future self's presence.

[Mira]

  Or Harry's foes are reading his mind and mocking him by repeating back to him what he said.  Remember defense against that isn't the best for members of the White Council, as Harry found out against Corpsetaker.  After he and Molly practiced secretly their defenses got a bit better and you may see less of Harry's words being repeated back to him.  The part about the time travel bit that doesn't quite fit is Harry is usually saying those alone.. Also they just might be common sayings for that group of people...  As in when Harry said about getting to be the Merlin by collecting bottle caps sounds like it might be a pretty common saying among the younger wizards especially.  "Fun time in handcuffs," could also be another be it sick common saying.

[Dina]

I agree with the fact that it could be just coincidences (common sayings among some people) but not about the option of mocking enemies. It would be too much of a risk to do that, as Harry could notice.

[g33k]

... First, we know that Justine was Nemfected and had to be infected by someone ...

Actually, we don't know Justine "had to be infected by someone."  We have no viable nor exhaustive list of Nemvectors; person-to-person spread may not even be one of them!  IIRC, we don't know of any person-to-person transfers.  Lea got Nemfected by Morgana's Athame (not by a "person" but by a "cursed item"), and I think that's the only Nemfection whose provenance we know precisely (tho there's plenty of WAGs about others).

... Maeve being Nemfected a strong possibility given that she almost blew up Demonreach and that was the explicit goal of Nemesis in Battle Ground. She was also the very first target of the Starborn Winter Knight. 

No, we 100% know for sure that Maeve was Nemfected; that's why Mab ordered her killed.  We know it came from Lea, though not precisely how.

Maeve wanted to beat Mab, to outmaneuver her and take away what she valued.  Nemesis gave Maeve some degree of free will, and choice; much more than other Fae.  Unlike all the others, Maeve could lie (not just mislead & misdirect and slice the truth so fine it was almost invisible, but blatantly and knowingly speak an un-truth); Maeve's dying words were, "two plus two is five" (which, when you think about it, is really rather pathetic:  a trivial little nothingburger lie, petty braggadocio... but also 100% proof that she had Something Big enabling her to violate one of the fundamentals of Faerie).

Lea "spread it to Maeve" (Mab's own words) somehow... but Lea still had the Athame, so could easily have been the proximate source of Maeve's Nemfection, as well as Lea's!

= = =

How did Aurora get Nemfected?  We have WAGs, but canon is unclear on anything beyond that it happened.

How did Cat Sith get Nemfected?  He was "taken" somehow (and just how TF do you "take" a critter like Cat Sith, who's competent & stealthy enough to remove elite sidhe warriors without neighboring elite sidhe warriors even noticing??!?), but we don't know the details of actually passing Nemesis to him.

etc.

Looping back to Justine, however...

My best bet is that her Nemfection happened somewhere in the White Court.  There is a LOT of Outsider influence / presence amongst the Whampires, and I'm betting it was "someone... or something" who Nemfected her there, with my first guess being something in the private "Starborn/Outsider Apocalypse" collection of Raith Père, after she began acting as Lara's personal assistant.  (On a slight tangent:  I further WAG that the substantive Outsider problems amongst the Whamps is Mab's "main" motivation in contracting a marriage between her Starborn-Wizard Winterknight, and White Princess Lara).

I don't discount @Mira's theory, though, that Justine was a deep plant:  Nemfected before we first met her, worming her way into Thomas' affections, in order to get to Harry.  This is my own 2nd-favorite theory.
 

[Talby16]

Actually, we don't know Justine "had to be infected by someone."  We have no viable nor exhaustive list of Nemvectors; person-to-person spread may not even be one of them!  IIRC, we don't know of any person-to-person transfers.  Lea got Nemfected by Morgana's Athame (not by a "person" but by a "cursed item"), and I think that's the only Nemfection whose provenance we know precisely (tho there's plenty of WAGs about others).
No, we 100% know for sure that Maeve was Nemfected; that's why Mab ordered her killed.  We know it came from Lea, though not precisely how.

We know that infection is not simple. Otherwise, why did the White Court vector (whatever it was) not go after Lara? They got to Justine and theoretically should have been a step closer to getting Lara. As far as we know, Lara is free from infection. It is not as simple as person to person because then Justine should have been able to infect Lara while serving as her personal assistant. I assume that at some point we will learn the whole story. My guess is that Harry/Lara will capture Justine and in the process of trying to cure her interrogate her to learn more and fill in some of the gaps in their knowledge.

My best bet is that her Nemfection happened somewhere in the White Court.  There is a LOT of Outsider influence / presence amongst the Whampires, and I'm betting it was "someone... or something" who Nemfected her there, with my first guess being something in the private "Starborn/Outsider Apocalypse" collection of Raith Père, after she began acting as Lara's personal assistant.  (On a slight tangent:  I further WAG that the substantive Outsider problems amongst the Whamps is Mab's "main" motivation in contracting a marriage between her Starborn-Wizard Winterknight, and White Princess Lara).

I don't discount @Mira's theory, though, that Justine was a deep plant:  Nemfected before we first met her, worming her way into Thomas' affections, in order to get to Harry.  This is my own 2nd-favorite theory.

We know the infection happened about the time that Justine started working for Lara. Therefore, sometime after Blood Rites. We know from the Marcone story that Justine was sent as Mab's envoy to other accorded nations. She could have been infected on one of these trips away from the White Court or, as suggested, by Nemesis influence in the White Court seeking a closer connection to the queen.