The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Turncoat
Talby16:
--- Quote from: Mira on May 18, 2025, 12:03:21 PM ---Not because of the body switch, but because of the ink.
--- End quote ---
The body switch made Luccio more susceptible to the ink than a wizard of her age should be. A few quotes from the book (all are from the paperback version and all italics are my emohasis). From pages 128 to 129:
--- Quote ---"Someone could have gotten into his head," I said.
"At his age?" Ebenezar said, "Ain't likely."
I frowned. "What do you mean?"
"As a mind grows older, it gets established," he said, "more set in its ways. Like a willow tree. Supple when it's young, but gets more brittle as it ages. Once you've been around a century or so, it generally ain't possible to bend a mind without breaking it."
"Generally?"
"You can't push it that far," Ebeneezer said. "Push a loyal man into betraying everything he believes in? You'd drive him insane before you forced him into that."
--- End quote ---
From that same section you quoted from pages 518 to 519 of Turn Coat:
--- Quote ---It was tougher for the members of the Senior Council, in my opinion, all of whom had almost certainly been influenced in subtle ways. They had to go back over their decisions for the past several years, and wonder if they had been pushed into making a choice, if it had been their own action, or if the ambiguity of any given decision had been natural to the environment. The touch had been so light that it hadn't left any lasting tracks.
--- End quote ---
Another quote from pages 526 to 527:
--- Quote ---"Or maybe Peabody go to him (The Merlin) harder than we all think," I said.
"Improbable," Ebenezar said, "The drugs he slipped the Senior Council let him nudge them...us. But we're all too crusty to bend more than that."
--- End quote ---
The older the subject the less that Peabody could do. Older wizards become more set mentally and are harder to influence. Luccio is older than Morgan and Eb said in the first quote that Morgan could not have been forced to kill against his will. Luccio was more susceptible because of the body switch and the resulting younger mind. Peabody was able to have a greater influence on her with his ink. I doubt that Peabody could force an older wizard, including the Senior Council, to accompany him to the island. That goes far beyond the nudging Eb mentioned. If a Senior Council member was present on the island, I believe they had to be there of there own will as a co-conspirator, not because they were forced to by Peabody. Both Eb and Harry believe that it was Cristos on the island with Peabody, but we know that they could be wrong.
--- Quote from: Mira on May 18, 2025, 12:03:21 PM ---Now in the end the Senior Council may not admit to the extent that they were compromised, but from Listens-to-Wind's honest reaction, the effect on the Senior Council was potentially quite serious.. Remember he would know as both a medical doctor and a scientist the effect of those drugs on the mind, even the minds of Senior Council members.
--- End quote ---
When Listens-to Winds had that reaction, he had just found out during the trial that Peabody had been influencing the wizards through his ink. That was an honest reaction of shock at the news. No investigation had been made into what exactly the ink was and what it could do yet. At that point, his medical and scientific knowledge was useless because he just found out about it and had not examined the ink for himself. It wasn't until after Peabody had been killed, the mistfiend contained, and the injured treated that the Merlin and Injun Joe examined the ink and the influenced wizards fully to see what the effect was. Harry detailed this on page 518 while he was in the infirmary recovering before he talked to the Gatekeeper (the paragraph preceding the second book quote above). For all Listens to Winds knew at the time of the reveal, the effect on the Senior Council could have been quite serious. However, it was after his and Merlin's investigation that Harry made the influence in subtle ways reference to the Senior Council and Eb shared the third quote about the Senior Council only being nudged not bent.
--- Quote from: Mira on May 18, 2025, 12:03:21 PM ---No, the whole White Council, if they came in contact with the ink, was affected to some degree.
--- End quote ---
I agree, if they came into contact with the ink they were impacted to some degree. That degree depends on how much contact they had with the ink (ie how often they were at headquarters and signing paper work) and how susceptible they were to the inks influence (age and mental defenses).
Mira:
--- Quote ---I agree, if they came into contact with the ink they were impacted to some degree. That degree depends on how much contact they had with the ink (ie how often they were at headquarters and signing paper work) and how susceptible they were to the inks influence (age and mental defenses).
--- End quote ---
Senior Council, they are intimately involved with governing the White Council, so yeah, lots of contact with Peabody's ink.. And don't discount nudges, especially when the person who is being affected has no clue that he or she is being nudged in one direction or another... Timing in attacks during wartime is one example, a couple of hours one way or the other could be the difference between success and disaster... Or kind of like driving a car after drinking, you don't have to be drunk to a danger on the road. You are not drunk, not even remotely, but your reaction time is slowed, normally wouldn't affect your driving, but if something happens and you are even a split second too slow to react...
--- Quote ---When Listens-to Winds had that reaction, he had just found out during the trial that Peabody had been influencing the wizards through his ink. That was an honest reaction of shock at the news. No investigation had been made into what exactly the ink was and what it could do yet. At that point, his medical and scientific knowledge was useless because he just found out about it and had not examined the ink for himself. It wasn't until after Peabody had been killed, the mistfiend contained, and the injured treated that the Merlin and Injun Joe examined the ink and the influenced wizards fully to see what the effect was. Harry detailed this on page 518 while he was in the infirmary recovering before he talked to the Gatekeeper (the paragraph preceding the second book quote above). For all Listens to Winds knew at the time of the reveal, the effect on the Senior Council could have been quite serious. However, it was after his and Merlin's investigation that Harry made the influence in subtle ways reference to the Senior Council and Eb shared the third quote about the Senior Council only being nudged not bent.
--- End quote ---
or...
--- Quote ---Official testimony from Eb at the trial, page 386 bolding and italics mine...
Quote
"Working on the evidence Dresden found." Ebenezar said, "Warden Ramiez and I searched Peabody's chambers thoroughly not twenty minutes ago. A test of inks he used to attain the signatures of the Senior Council for various authorizations revealed the presence of a number of chemical and alchemical substances that are known to have been used to assist psychic manipulation of their subjects. It is my belief that Peabody has been drugging the ink for the purpose of attempting greater mental influence over the decisions of the members of the Senior Council, and that it is entirely possible that he has compromised the free will of younger members of the Council outright."
Listens-to-Wind's mouth opened in sudden surprise and understanding. He looked at his ink-stained fingertips, and then up at Peabody.
--- End quote ---
Was it useless? He had just listened to Eb's testimony as to what was in the ink.. Listen's-to-Wind has enough knowledge of chemistry to understand perfectly well what Eb was saying they found.. He didn't need to do his own analysis.
Yes, while the body change made Luccio more susceptible, it still was the ink, wasn't it? That's my point.
Another point, and the real damage of Peabody's subtle nudges, " A new age of White Council paranoia had begun. "
What happened after the battle for Chicago is a perfect example of that.
Talby16:
--- Quote from: Mira on May 19, 2025, 12:34:11 PM ---Another point, and the real damage of Peabody's subtle nudges, " A new age of White Council paranoia had begun. "
What happened after the battle for Chicago is a perfect example of that.
--- End quote ---
This alone almost outstrips anything Peabody was actually able to accomplish with the ink. The younger wardens could be healed. The older wizards would question/second guess themselves, but the damage to their minds was not extensive. The paranoia caused by an infiltrator in the council won't go away anytime soon. The White Council is jumping at shadows afraid someone else is working against them. IT would be easy to whip that paranoia up and point it at some one specific. As you said, we definitely see the continuation of that with what happens to Harry after Chicago.
Tinfoil hat:
--- Quote from: Mira on May 19, 2025, 12:34:11 PM ---Senior Council, they are intimately involved with governing the White Council, so yeah, lots of contact with Peabody's ink.. And don't discount nudges, especially when the person who is being affected has no clue that he or she is being nudged in one direction or another... Timing in attacks during wartime is one example, a couple of hours one way or the other could be the difference between success and disaster... Or kind of like driving a car after drinking, you don't have to be drunk to a danger on the road. You are not drunk, not even remotely, but your reaction time is slowed, normally wouldn't affect your driving, but if something happens and you are even a split second too slow to react...
or...
Was it useless? He had just listened to Eb's testimony as to what was in the ink.. Listen's-to-Wind has enough knowledge of chemistry to understand perfectly well what Eb was saying they found.. He didn't need to do his own analysis.
Yes, while the body change made Luccio more susceptible, it still was the ink, wasn't it? That's my point.
Another point, and the real damage of Peabody's subtle nudges, " A new age of White Council paranoia had begun. "
What happened after the battle for Chicago is a perfect example of that.
--- End quote ---
Peabody couldn't make a SC member do what he wants only nudge them in a certain way. And his effects on the SC members is mych worse than the total mind control on the younger members in my view.
Imagine for a minute that you are a hot head member of the SC (Eb) for eg. You make a decision to support a strike in your anger and afterwards you find out that you could have been nudged into making that decision and ppl died as a result. You feel like that was something you would have supported its not out of character but you cant be sure. Or you are cautious ( the Merlin ) you delay a strike and the results are that many people die. Was it your natural cautiousness or Peabody ? you will never know. How will cause correct?
The young wizards were mind controlled fullstop. With counseling they may recover. They know it was not them it was someone else violating them. But the SC has a whole will always wonder if this or that decision was their own
Mira:
--- Quote ---Peabody couldn't make a SC member do what he wants only nudge them in a certain way. And his effects on the SC members is mych worse than the total mind control on the younger members in my view.
Imagine for a minute that you are a hot head member of the SC (Eb) for eg. You make a decision to support a strike in your anger and afterwards you find out that you could have been nudged into making that decision and ppl died as a result. You feel like that was something you would have supported its not out of character but you cant be sure. Or you are cautious ( the Merlin ) you delay a strike and the results are that many people die. Was it your natural cautiousness or Peabody ? you will never know. How will cause correct?
The young wizards were mind controlled fullstop. With counseling they may recover. They know it was not them it was someone else violating them. But the SC has a whole will always wonder if this or that decision was their own
--- End quote ---
That's the point, Peabody didn't have to do mind control over the senior members, simply nudging a Senior Council member can have grave consequences, especially in time of war as Harry pointed out. A leader second guessing him or herself becomes a less effective leader. Others second guessing their leader because decisions seem a bit off becomes a less effective team, vulnerable to infiltration or attack.
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