Author Topic: The Erl King a Vassal of Winter?  (Read 1664 times)

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: The Erl King a Vassal of Winter?
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2025, 04:03:44 AM »
That's a fantheory I've read, but IIRC WoJ has explicitly denied it.  In particular, there is only one Winter Queen & Summer Queen, and there is no corresponding singular King for either.  The Erlking is a king (who is Summer(ish)), but not the king -- except of the Goblins.

I don't even think Kringle is a "King" per se; but (as a part of Winter) he is in fact subject to Mab (something she's careful about, since the current Kringle is only part-time, and the rest of the time he's... rather more than that).

It would be interesting to see how Kringle interacts with the Mothers.  JB said at one point that pretty much everybody in Faerie is subordinate to the Mothers, but is Odin?  I mean he's not exactly 'of Faerie' in his own identity...

Offline Mira

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Re: The Erl King a Vassal of Winter?
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2025, 12:01:47 PM »
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It would be interesting to see how Kringle interacts with the Mothers.  JB said at one point that pretty much everybody in Faerie is subordinate to the Mothers, but is Odin?  I mean he's not exactly 'of Faerie' in his own identity...

I doubt that he is because he is a "god" in his own right.

Offline g33k

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Re: The Erl King a Vassal of Winter?
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2025, 06:59:32 PM »
I doubt that he is because he is a "god" in his own right.

So long as he wears the Kringle mantle, he's subject to Winter.
But he appears able to put it on and take it off at will.

Offline Mira

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Re: The Erl King a Vassal of Winter?
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2025, 11:37:16 AM »
So long as he wears the Kringle mantle, he's subject to Winter.
But he appears able to put it on and take it off at will.

More like an associate of Winter or with Winter, I doubt that Kringle would take a direct order from Mab for example, or that she would give one.. I think they actually agree on a lot of stuff, I also think because of his multiple mantles that he is way too complex to be a subject.

Offline g33k

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Re: The Erl King a Vassal of Winter?
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2025, 01:47:03 PM »
More like an associate of Winter or with Winter, I doubt that Kringle would take a direct order from Mab for example, or that she would give one.. I think they actually agree on a lot of stuff, I also think because of his multiple mantles that he is way too complex to be a subject.

Yes, Odin & Mab agree on lots of stuff (as we saw in Skin Game)... though not on all things.

But the Kringlemantle is one of Winters/Mab's.  Within the scope of Kringle's duties, it is entirely subject to Winterlaw.  Now... Mab does not wish to be seriously at odds with Odin, so she isn't likely to give
any orders that Odin -- or Vadderung -- finds deeply offensive.  By the same token, Odin doesn't want to be seriously at odds with Mab, so Kringle is always looking for ways to be inoffensive.

When push comes to shove (if Mab orders something he's unwilling to do) Odin can simply take off the Kringlemantle and say, "nope."

The thing is:  neither of them want this to happen simply as a result of Aesir/Faerie political squabbling, or points of pride between the two monarchs or their courts.  The Kringlemantle and what it represents and does is important to both of them.  Without ever actually speaking about it, they are lowkey collaborating to avoid needless conflicts; and both of them are pretty damned good at that sort of tactico-strategic thinking, so it works well (and has for hundreds of years).

Offline Mira

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Re: The Erl King a Vassal of Winter?
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2025, 11:33:14 PM »

One can be closely allied with, but at the same time not be the subject of..

Here is the definition of the term vassel;

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vassal. noun. vas·​sal ˈvas-əl. : a person in the Middle Ages who received protection and land from a lord in return for loyalty and service.

This really doesn't fit Kringle nor the Erl King, neither really needs land from or the protection of Mab.  Though they have both been loyal to a degree to her and of some service to her, in my opinion the term ally is better applied to both. 
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 12:00:13 PM by Mira »