The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
so ... soulgaze? the Sight?
g33k:
It has struck me that we don't know a huge amount about soulgazes in the Dresdenverse.
Like... we know wizards initiate , and very-minor talents do not; but also, that power-level is a continuum not in discrete power-up levels. So where's the can/cannot soulgaze division, exactly?
It's a facet of the "wizard's Sight" and so the same question applies: who exactly has the Sight, and doesn't?
Are some people just natively stronger with the Sight, more "inSightful?"
Can the Sight and/or soulgazing be cultivated, improved? Better-controlled, e.g. could an "experienced soulgazer" stave-off a 'gaze, not initiate it? Can they force a 'gaze instantly (without giving someone the chance to avert the gaze)? Can they learn to see more than others do, or keep others from seeing as clearly, learning as much? Does it more or less automatically improve with experience (i.e. do older wizards automatically See more)?
Can it be blocked (we know Angelic beings can disrupt an attempt; but that isn't the same thing)?
... etc ...
Dina:
I have wondered some of those things since the beginning.
I have the (unproved) idea that yes, there are wizards who are more insightful, as you said. Just like Harry is very good at fire magic, I think he is good at Sight and soulgazes.
I wish there were more talking about that in the books.
And, I need to say it, I want to see what people sees when they soulgaze Harry.
Mira:
Agreed, we don't know a whole lot, but neither apparently does your average young wizard. In the beginning of the series, Harry doesn't seem to have a whole lot of control as to when they happen, i.e. his soul gaze with the Denarian back in Death Masks wasn't intentional on Harry's part. As the books go on he learns to be more careful about eye contact. There is also a bit of arrogance about them as well, Harry gets the idea that a soul gaze with him can be intimidating.. However he also learns that that doesn't always work, as in the case of his soul gaze with Marcone. I don't know what the difference is, but I don't think while they might seem to be related, I don't think they are the same or even use the same talent. A wizard can use his sight at any distance to view something as it really is, but for a soul gaze eye contact is essential.
--- Quote --- "experienced soulgazer" stave-off a 'gaze, not initiate it?
--- End quote ---
Yes, in the later books more than once Harry has said that he felt the beginnings of a soul gaze and broke it off before it began. If you are asking whether or not an experienced soul gazer force another into one? Maybe, but then if it is about eye contact, closing one's eyes should be enough to stave one off.
--- Quote --- Can they force a 'gaze instantly (without giving someone the chance to avert the gaze)?
--- End quote ---
I think so if one of the gazers has no experience with them, and doesn't know enough to avert their gaze to break it off. Again in the beginning of the series this happened a couple of times to Harry, where he looked into someone's eyes, starting and in effect forcing a soul gaze before the person was aware of what was happening to him or her.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on December 14, 2024, 06:53:32 PM --- ...
Yes, in the later books more than once Harry has said that he felt the beginnings of a soul gaze and broke it off before it began. If you are asking whether or not an experienced soul gazer force another into one? Maybe, but then if it is about eye contact, closing one's eyes should be enough to stave one off.
I think so if one of the gazers has no experience with them, and doesn't know enough to avert their gaze to break it off. Again in the beginning of the series this happened a couple of times to Harry, where he looked into someone's eyes, starting and in effect forcing a soul gaze before the person was aware of what was happening to him or her.
--- End quote ---
Yes, breaking eye-contact can stop the Soulgaze.
I'm asking, can a sufficiently-strong and/or sufficiently-experienced Soulgazer just look into somebody's eyes and NOPE the forming soulgaze? Just... turn it off, by force of will or mental discipline?
By the same token, could a strong/experienced 'gazer force an insta-gaze, where the person being 'gazed -- even if they know to close their eyes / look away -- has no chance to do that, because it happens too fast?
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on December 14, 2024, 06:53:32 PM --- ... I don't know what the difference is, but I don't think while they might seem to be related, I don't think they are the same or even use the same talent ...
--- End quote ---
Harry thinks they're the same.
Or at least, Jim thought that Harry thought that, as of Grave Peril:
--- Quote ---When a mortal looks on something with the Sight, really looks, as a wizard may, the memories of what he sees are indelibly imprinted on him. And when a wizard looks into a person’s eyes, it’s just another way of using the Sight. A two-way use of it, because the person you look at gets to peer back at you, too.
--- End quote ---
early-episode-weirdness cannot be dismissed: it was only GP.
and of course Harry's an unreliable narrator.
But -- as with a Soulgaze -- wizards using their Sight see things differently, depending on their own psyche's and backgrounds... I guess Jim used to be active here, back in the day? Anyhow, this Q is credited to @Miss Demeanor (who I see hasn't been here since '07):
--- Quote ---Let’s say that Wizard A grew up in America, and may consider the embodiment of evil to be a devil-like figure. Wizard B is from India, and might instead associate evil with a rakshasa. They each view a subject with their third sight. The subject is a vile and malicious person. Would this be revealed to them both in the same way, or would what each one sees be influenced by his own cultural background?
Jim:
Not only would the Western-raised wizard and Eastern-raised wizard perceive things according to the cultural biases and subjective experiences, they might not even perceive them with the same /senses/.
The Third Sight is different for everyone, subjective, and inherently slanted towards ones own experiences and background. So while two wizards might look on some totally-gone, bloodthirsty warlock and see a bloodthirsty warlock, they might see it in very different ways.
... Harry looks on him and sees some Hannibal-Lectery figure crouched on the floor grinning and soaked in blood.
... Ancient Mai looks on him and sees a bare, twisted white tree in the center of an unbroken field of white snow, representative of the individual’s loss of spirit and humanity.
... Rodriguez looks at him and hears some kind of hideous music that accompanies the individual and makes the hair on the back of Carlos’ neck stand up...
... Listens-to-Wind looks on the warlock and smells something rotted and vile.
--- End quote ---
-- https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-magic-in-the-dresden-files-part-2/
Sight & Soulgaze are far more alike than they are dissimilar; the entire section of the WoJ-file I just quoted from is about "3rd sight and Soulgaze" and it's clear from the various Q&A that their same-ness was a common assumption on both sides.
edit: in fact, here's the Paranet thread where she asked, and Jim answered...
https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,1419.0.html
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