The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Elaine is the wizard the White Council should really be afraid of.
Mira:
--- Quote ---We have no proof positive, no. But we have some indicators...
The fact that he chose to live an increasingly-impoverished life, moving from being a notable multi-book author, to running hokey seances as a con-man, with cheap plastic gargoyles in the yard is one such.
Lack of any Bob-testimony / Harrry-awareness is another: Harry sent Bob out "scouting for info" quite a few times, that we saw; I presume he did so off-screen, too. Bob would certainly have noticed -- sooner or later -- if Mort was operating (up through Grave Peril) a spiritual redoubt as formidable as the one in Ghost Story, and reported as much to Harry.
Harry himself has other investigative magical resources, as well; he won't just be looking with his eyeballs. The idea that an ectomancer the caliber of GS-Mort could have been operating under Harry's nose & in his back yard for years seems wholly unbelievable... Mort's a powerful ectomancer, but there are a great many magical disciplines where he's blind and ignorant... and Harry isn't. Hard for Mort to effectively block what he can't detect / doesn't understand!
--- End quote ---
Oh it is very believable, it's done everyday. Mort was regarded as a con man by Harry, and in Grave Peril Mort didn't do anything to change that opinion. At one point he even pointedly confirms it to Harry, paraphrasing, "you know I've lost my power, right?" Now that can be taken two ways, yes, Mort's lost his powers, or Mort is covering, as in telling Harry what he already believes and wants to hear.
--- Quote ---Yes, he had some power; it faded, and was lessened... but never faded entirely out of his reach.
Note that Charity's power is gone gone, by way of neglect (intentional dis-use); it isn't coming back.
--- End quote ---
Apples to Oranges, Charity was never trained, Mort was.. I also think it remains to be seen whether or not Charity's power or talent is gone, gone.. I think it is gone because she wants it to be, because of what she almost became.
--- Quote ---I think it was because of Harry. Harry seems more-able than most to uplift those around him, redirect them in better ways. Mort seems to have benefited.
--- End quote ---
Still to what purpose? As I said, in Grave Peril Mort just had too much information for someone who is out of the game.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on December 12, 2024, 03:16:11 PM ---Oh it is very believable, it's done everyday. Mort was regarded as a con man by Harry, and in Grave Peril Mort didn't do anything to change that opinion. At one point he even pointedly confirms it to Harry, paraphrasing, "you know I've lost my power, right?" Now that can be taken two ways, yes, Mort's lost his powers, or Mort is covering, as in telling Harry what he already believes and wants to hear.
--- End quote ---
It sounds like you really want to believe Mort had his full powers all along...
But you're going to have to argue with Jim himself:
--- Quote ---what Morty was doing with his talent was borderline slimy and he knew it. And he didn’t really believe in it, and as a result, his talent started failing him from time to time–which affected his confidence, which in turn made his talent even shakier, a vicious cycle. He was still trying–he had just gotten himself into a situation where he was sandbagging himself psychologically.
--- End quote ---
Now, we all know that Jim isn't above lying. But you'd honestly need a really strong argument as to why Jim was lying about this for me to give any serious credence.
--- Quote from: Mira on December 12, 2024, 03:16:11 PM --- ... Apples to Oranges, Charity was never trained, Mort was.. I also think it remains to be seen whether or not Charity's power or talent is gone, gone.. I think it is gone because she wants it to be, because of what she almost became ...
--- End quote ---
No, Charity's coven (and the cultic leader there) did train her (at least somewhat; I think we can presume it wasn't nearly the caliber of training Harry can give (or any WC wizard open-minded enough to train a "lesser" talent); or even what the average Paranetter (as of PT/BG) can get). Charity wasn't so much untrained as (very) badly trained.
But yes, Charity's power is gone, gone; she hasn't passed it to any of her other children. Jim says:
--- Quote ---Maybe her kids, if they wanted, could go out and work hard and stir up a latent talent. A watershed sort of life event might do something along those lines–shake them up enough to jump-start a dormant gift. But then, that’s most of humanity in the Dresden Files, really. Everyone has some kind of ability, if they just want to look hard enough to find it. That’s where the Alpha’s came from.
--- End quote ---
(bold italic emphasis added by me)
Or at least, it's profoundly weakened/lessened, like a muscle atrophied from extreme disuse; and then deeply buried, so that it's completely unavailable. It would take Charity a very long time, and lots of hard work, to get back any magic whatsoever. Quoting Jim, again:
--- Quote ---Being a wizard is ... a complicated talent with /many/ different aspects, all of which have to work together to cause an effect–IE, a spell. If you neglect that group of talents over the course of years, regaining them and getting them all to work together again would be extremely difficult, if it was possible at all.
--- End quote ---
(all WoJ's quoted above come from https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-magic-in-the-dresden-files-part-2/ )
Mira:
--- Quote ---Now, we all know that Jim isn't above lying. But you'd honestly need a really strong argument as to why Jim was lying about this for me to give any serious credence.
--- End quote ---
Lying is a strong word isn't it? I never said Jim was lying, I only go by what I read or interpret what I am reading in the text. For me that makes reading the series much more interesting, because it is fiction it is open to many interpretations from the readers. Also again Jim's answer is just vague enough to allow for that, because who knows when he answered that question he may have been after one thing, but later on in the series he might change his mind, we've seen examples of that as well.
--- Quote ---No, Charity's coven (and the cultic leader there) did train her (at least somewhat; I think we can presume it wasn't nearly the caliber of training Harry can give (or any WC wizard open-minded enough to train a "lesser" talent); or even what the average Paranetter (as of PT/BG) can get). Charity wasn't so much untrained as (very) badly trained.
--- End quote ---
Train somewhat? Badly trained? I'd like to repeat a statement my brother in law used to love to make, in other words, "Charity knew just enough to be stupid!" The same could go for Kim if you will remember?
--- Quote ---But yes, Charity's power is gone, gone; she hasn't passed it to any of her other children. Jim says:
--- End quote ---
I think talent is genetic, she managed to pass it on to at least one of her children, didn't she?
--- Quote --- Maybe her kids, if they wanted, could go out and work hard and stir up a latent talent. A watershed sort of life event might do something along those lines–shake them up enough to jump-start a dormant gift. But then, that’s most of humanity in the Dresden Files, really. Everyone has some kind of ability, if they just want to look hard enough to find it. That’s where the Alpha’s came from.
--- End quote ---
Um, I think you misread Jim there! Charity's kids couldn't stir up any talent, or at least not enough to make that much difference, if they didn't have the talent to begin with.
--- Quote ---Being a wizard is ... a complicated talent with /many/ different aspects, all of which have to work together to cause an effect–IE, a spell. If you neglect that group of talents over the course of years, regaining them and getting them all to work together again would be extremely difficult, if it was possible at all.
--- End quote ---
Which kind of contradicts what he said about Mort doesn't it? Or maybe having it both ways to give himself as an author more flexibility, I understand that..
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on December 13, 2024, 03:30:48 PM ---Lying is a strong word isn't it? I never said Jim was lying ...
--- End quote ---
Not at all... not in this context.
Every story Jim tells is, at some level, a "lie" -- an un-truth, spoken/written in full knowledge that it isn't true.
I used to tell my kids, when they were little:
--- Quote ---I try really, really hard never to lie to you. I don't always tell you every detail, and everybody makes errors and is mistaken about some stuff... but I don't lie to you.
Except once a year, at Christmas.
You're getting coal for Christmas.
--- End quote ---
Jim lies to us to entertain us. And sometimes -- iirc by his own admission -- he even lies outside of "canonical" stories, in the Q&A / AMA / etc that we collect as "WoJ"'s, when he seems it sufficiently-important to keep a plot-element back as a surprise and just saying "I won't tell you" is insufficient.
But back to the point at hand: Mort's power had indeed weakened, confirmed by Jim:
--- Quote --- ... his talent started failing him from time to time–which affected his confidence, which in turn made his talent even shakier, a vicious cycle ...
--- End quote ---
Or:
--- Quote from: Mira on December 13, 2024, 03:30:48 PM --- ... what I read or interpret what I am reading in the text ... because it is fiction it is open to many interpretations from the readers ... who knows when he answered that question he may have been after one thing, but later on in the series he might change his mind, we've seen examples of that as well ...
--- End quote ---
Because Jim engages with us outside the context of his art, we have more opportunity to query -- even have dialogue with -- the artist & his intent. We're always free, of course, to take the work entirely on the basis of its own merits & our own responses, and disregard the artist themselves!
Personally, I prefer to consult the WoJ's to further my understanding.
But, of course, you're right -- Jim changes his mind. And the series is just as subject to "early episode weirdness" as any other. And sometimes (albeit rarely) Jim even lies directly.
Even so, I like to have the WoJ's, and I read them when I find new ones!
--- Quote from: Mira on December 13, 2024, 03:30:48 PM --- ... Train somewhat? Badly trained? I'd like to repeat a statement my brother in law used to love to make, in other words, "Charity knew just enough to be stupid!" The same could go for Kim if you will remember?
--- End quote ---
You had alleged Charity was "untrained," I just thought it an important distinction that -- however piss-poor he was -- there was a magic-trainer in Charity's life. An abusive one, without much native power; but she wasn't entirely untrained.
--- Quote from: Mira on December 13, 2024, 03:30:48 PM --- ... I think talent is genetic, she managed to pass it on to at least one of her children, didn't she? ...
--- End quote ---
The WC calls it "Salic Law" -- mothers with magical gifts tend to have children with magical gifts; apparenty it's not a male-line (Y-chromosome?) thing, however.
But sometimes power "comes from nowhere," no known talent from ancestry; and sometimes the most promising of parentage produces no more than a squib. Margaret LaFey was the daughter of a mundane mother. I think "recessive" genes and "masking" genes are part of the issue; but there's more...
Jim has made it clear that magical talent is (at least in part) a matter of epigenetics:
https://harvardcenter.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/EpigeneticsInfographic_FINAL.jpg.
Molly is talented because Charity's potential got expressed; and that happened specifically because Charity had relatively-recently been a practitioner herself (and (maybe) because she'd been exposed to other magic (her coven/cult, the dragon Siriothrax)). The rest of the Carpenter kids did not have their potential expressed... specifically because Charity had been working so diligently to suppress her magic and had no other magic influencing her.
(this kind of environmental exposure causing different "expressions" of similar/identical genetics is what the study of epigenetics is all about)
As adults, Molly has full power, while her younger sibs would need something extraordinary to even get minor abilities; their potential is akin to most mortals'.
--- Quote from: Mira on December 13, 2024, 03:30:48 PM --- ... Charity's kids couldn't stir up any talent, or at least not enough to make that much difference, if they didn't have the talent to begin with...
--- End quote ---
Jim explicitly says the other kids aren't very different from most humans in the Dresdenverse:
--- Quote --- ... that’s most of humanity in the Dresden Files, really. Everyone has some kind of ability, if they just want to look hard enough to find it ...
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Mira on December 13, 2024, 03:30:48 PM --- ... Which kind of contradicts what he said about Mort doesn't it? Or maybe having it both ways to give himself as an author more flexibility, I understand that.
--- End quote ---
Charity's situation and Mort's are entirely different.
Mort never abandoned his powers; he just lost faith in himself, and they weakened... but never faded away to zero. When Mort started believing in himself and his powers again, he was able to rebuild them.
Charity actively abandoned her powers; she chose to let them atrophy, and fade... and now they have actively faded beyond her reach (as witness her later children being born without magic talent).
Mira:
--- Quote ---Charity actively abandoned her powers; she chose to let them atrophy, and fade... and now they have actively faded beyond her reach (as witness her later children being born without magic talent).
--- End quote ---
That doesn't mean that the genes no longer exist in Charity's body to pass on to her children or that they don't have recessive genes for magical talent in their bodies that will show up in later generations.
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