The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Warden of Demonreach: Dragoncon lore-dump or retcon??!?
Mira:
--- Quote ---I think there are a couple of problems with this idea. First, the island doesn't like visitors and there isn't a practical way to keep an eye on the island other than being there.
I suspect the most important problem is, the White Council doesn't choose who becomes the island's Warden. I'm pretty sure it's Alfred choice. According to Harry, performing a Sanctum invocation is dangerous, so it isn't something most wizards ever do. So the Council would be hard pressed to find volunteers to attempt to do what Harry did.
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I agree with this, I think any full wizard may have the knowledge and talent to perform the ritual of a Sanctum, but few are accepted by Alfred. If a wizard isn't accepted, at best he or she is thrown off the island, or worse, simply killed. I think the critical moment was when Alfred and Harry did the stare down after the summons, then Harry's extraordinary will kicked in, as Harry has said. paraphrasing, "it punched, and I punched back and now we are friends." Apparently in that moment Harry demonstrated to Alfred's satisfaction that he was strong enough to handle the job. Though at the time Harry had no idea it was a job interview.
--- Quote ---On a different topic, we don't know much, or anything really, about Kemmler's personal history. Sure, he was super evil and crazy, but was he always that way? Was there a time when Kemmler was in good standing with the White Council, like Justine DuMorne was once a Warden of the Council? It's possible that Kemmler became the madman we know about after he was the Warden or while he was the Warden of Demonreach. Having extended conversations with some of things locked up under the island might have done that or contributed to Kemmler going down the dark path.
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All of this is theory of course since we don't know any details save there is a WOJ that Kemmler was once a Warden of the island. My own theory is that Kemmler wasn't always evil, however after becoming Warden he didn't heed warnings about drawing power from the Ley line of the island, thus was corrupted by it and became evil. Remember what Rashid said about the Ley line, it's source was the island. Did he mean the monsters that it has imprisoned? If so, Rashid said it would be years before Harry was either experienced or old enough to draw upon it's power,without being altered by it.. This is another possible hint of what took place with Kemmler. Rashid didn't elaborate except to hint that the outcome wouldn't be good, and that Harry was years away from even attempting such a thing. In other words Harry isn't ready to use the power of the Ley line now, but Rashid didn't rule out Harry using it in the future, perhaps in the BAT? This most likely the set up for the last book in the BAT, why Harry was selected as Warden, so eventually in the final battle he will use it. That's why the island was brought into the series in the first place.
--- Quote ---I wonder if Harry will ever ask Alfred about past Wardens; so we can learn more, or if this is backstory information that won't have much relevance to the story going forward. My guess is Kemmler's story; at least, is important, that it contains clues or information that Harry will eventually need to know. The stories and fates of the other wardens might also become important to Harry. We will just have to wait to see if I'm right.
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He may have asked during that year he spent on the island. I wonder though if Alfred is capable of communicating something like that?
KurtinStGeorge:
--- Quote from: Mira on September 26, 2024, 11:06:59 AM ---All of this is theory of course since we don't know any details save there is a WOJ that Kemmler was once a Warden of the island. My own theory is that Kemmler wasn't always evil, however after becoming Warden he didn't heed warnings about drawing power from the Ley line of the island, thus was corrupted by it and became evil. Remember what Rashid said about the Ley line, it's source was the island. Did he mean the monsters that it has imprisoned? If so, Rashid said it would be years before Harry was either experienced or old enough to draw upon it's power,without being altered by it.. This is another possible hint of what took place with Kemmler. Rashid didn't elaborate except to hint that the outcome wouldn't be good, and that Harry was years away from even attempting such a thing. In other words Harry isn't ready to use the power of the Ley line now, but Rashid didn't rule out Harry using it in the future, perhaps in the BAT? This most likely the set up for the last book in the BAT, why Harry was selected as Warden, so eventually in the final battle he will use it. That's why the island was brought into the series in the first place.
He may have asked during that year he spent on the island. I wonder though if Alfred is capable of communicating something like that?
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Not a bad idea. I like it.
I think Alfred could communicate about past wardens in broad strokes. He might mention the warden who tapped into the island's Ley line. Real basic information.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I think Alfred could communicate about past wardens in broad strokes. He might mention the warden who tapped into the island's Ley line. Real basic information.
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Very basic I would say, I don't get the feeling that Alfred understands humans or their motivations very well. In other words while he might be able to say that Kemmler tapped into the Ley line and maybe that it corrupted him, but I doubt that he could get across something that was probably more complicated than just Kemmler tapped the Ley line and became corrupted. Had Kemmler been warned like Harry was not to touch it and did it anyway? Why? Did he do it for just power? Or did it have something to do with him later becoming an necromancer? Did he lose someone he wanted to bring back? These are all important questions and I just don't think answering them are in Alfred's wheel house. It's job is to jail and to keep jailed monsters and evil doers.. Notice however it doesn't do that on it's own, it takes a human Warden to make that judgement.. Though there may have been non-human Wardens in the past, but we have no information on that.
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on September 26, 2024, 09:35:39 AM ---In Skin Game Lasciel told Harry that the coins weren't meant to be "locked up" very long. I forget her exact language. It was something about how corruption can't be kept hidden. I suspect the same applies to Demonreach as the Church keeping the coins in hiding.
Also, it is possible that whatever rules Demonreach operates under might make it impossible for the island to hold the coins. Maybe it could hold Nicodemus or another denarian but the coin might not be able to enter the vault with the coin holder. I'm just speculating, but I wouldn't be surprised if this or some other mechanism prevents the island from imprisoning the coins.
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We've never seen Alfred act on its own volition to imprison someone. At the times when the Denarians were on the island, there was no Warden to give the order to imprison them. Almost all the creatures and beings in that prison are there because someone (i.e. the White Council I'm pretty sure) put them there.
Could the prison hold a Denarian? I imagine so. Could it hold a Coin? I'm not so sure. If nothing else, there would be the risk of infernal intervention.
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I think there are a couple of problems with this idea. First, the island doesn't like visitors and there isn't a practical way to keep an eye on the island other than being there.
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I have to agree with Mira on this. Maybe Alfred doesn't like visitors on the island or maybe not, we just don't know. Apparently someone was able to operate a cannery there for a little while at least, so it's certainly possible to visit it. Alfred might not like Rashid, but Rashid still visited the island.
So I would imagine that the Council could send a party of Wizards to check the place out every so often.
And even if that isn't a viable option, it would not be that hard to keep track of who visited. The Council has vast resources of money. They could put a few boats on Lake Michigan in the area, disguised as ordinary fishermen or pleasure boaters or whatever to keep track of the waters around the island, they could hire someone to run a radar set on such boats to watch the skies about. It just wouldn't be that hard for the Council to keep track of comings and goings, at least in the real world. We don't know how hard it would be to access Demonreach through the Nevernever, but Nicodemus seemed to think it would be...difficult. And I suspect the White Council has the resources to keep track of the Nevernever near Demonreach, too.
It really is strange that the Council doesn't seem to be doing that, considering what that place is. Maybe, maybe, they're afraid of calling attention to it by watching it too closely...but I don't really buy that.
Mira has a point, this is really strange.
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I suspect the most important problem is, the White Council doesn't choose who becomes the island's Warden. I'm pretty sure it's Alfred choice. According to Harry, performing a Sanctum invocation is dangerous, so it isn't something most wizards ever do. So the Council would be hard pressed to find volunteers to attempt to do what Harry did.
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I suspect the Council usually does choose the Warden, when there is one. They might have to be careful to choose somone acceptable to Alfred, but I doubt that's an insuperable barrier.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I suspect the Council usually does choose the Warden, when there is one. They might have to be careful to choose somone acceptable to Alfred, but I doubt that's an insuperable barrier.
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Yeah, I think an important factor is what happens to the rejects? If the wizard who doesn't pass the test dies,the the Council would have a real problem trying to recruit suitable candidates. Another factor is the real danger of corruption of the Warden because the temptation to use the Ley line of the island is just too strong. Apparently from what Rashid was hinting at, very few wizards are both strong enough in talent and character to use that Ley line without being altered by it.. If I am right about Kemmler, he used it and was altered by it for the worse.
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