The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: Mira on July 24, 2024, 12:04:30 PM ---Would he have? I'm not so sure, at the end of Turn Coat, Thomas fully admits in so many words after the Hunger Demon took over he enjoyed feeding on and killing those girls. Just a personal opinion, but I wish Jim had developed this Thomas more for Harry to deal with, I think Jim dropped the ball there.
page 413 Turn Coat;
I was really disappointed, because that could have set up some really interesting conflict, and nothing, if anything was done with this. In Changes, Thomas was pretty back to who he was before the Skinwalker got a hold of him, and so was his relationship with Harry. Possible we might see it yet, now that Thomas is on the island reliving his crimes. I hope so.
--- End quote ---
I think the key word is just that. What Shagnasty revealed to Thomas was that his 'friendly neighborhood vampire' approach was an illusion, that inside, he was still what he was, and that he had been that all along. His relationship with Harry, and his attitude, have returned to more or less what they were before, but now the presence of that demon has been revealed, it's been revealed that Thomas is a danger to mortals around him, that the demonic part of him likes being a predator, it's always there.
Thomas had been telling himself, before, that maybe he could change, stop being what he is, Shagnasty took that illusion away. Now he continues to try to be decent, to be safe...but the menace is never far away.
JB had to go back to at least a similar relationship to what they had before, if Thomas had kept on as he was in the immediate aftermath of the Shagnasty affair, well...that story only goes one place and it gets there fairly quickly. If they had gone down that road, Harry, or someone, would have had to terminate Thomas, or else he'd have become a full-on enemy and the brother-relationship would just be gone.
But the danger that Thomas represents, the nastiness that is the White Court with the facade torn aside, now it's out there. I think part of what JB was doing, in Turn Coat, was 'deconstructing' the then-popular idea of the Romantic Tragic Vampire, both with Thomas and his victims, and with the interaction of Lara and Madeline.
Mira:
--- Quote from: LordDresden2 on July 24, 2024, 06:33:04 PM ---I think the key word is just that. What Shagnasty revealed to Thomas was that his 'friendly neighborhood vampire' approach was an illusion, that inside, he was still what he was, and that he had been that all along. His relationship with Harry, and his attitude, have returned to more or less what they were before, but now the presence of that demon has been revealed, it's been revealed that Thomas is a danger to mortals around him, that the demonic part of him likes being a predator, it's always there.
Thomas had been telling himself, before, that maybe he could change, stop being what he is, Shagnasty took that illusion away. Now he continues to try to be decent, to be safe...but the menace is never far away.
JB had to go back to at least a similar relationship to what they had before, if Thomas had kept on as he was in the immediate aftermath of the Shagnasty affair, well...that story only goes one place and it gets there fairly quickly. If they had gone down that road, Harry, or someone, would have had to terminate Thomas, or else he'd have become a full-on enemy and the brother-relationship would just be gone.
But the danger that Thomas represents, the nastiness that is the White Court with the facade torn aside, now it's out there. I think part of what JB was doing, in Turn Coat, was 'deconstructing' the then-popular idea of the Romantic Tragic Vampire, both with Thomas and his victims, and with the interaction of Lara and Madeline.
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Maybe, but Harry hasn't come to grips with it either. Now it may come to a head in Twelve Months, because unlike her little brother, Lara has never fought what she was. Actually she seem pleased with the results of Shaggy's "treatment" of Thomas, in her eyes he was now acting normal. If the marriage between her and Harry doesn't happen, this will be one reason behind it.
I disagree, I think the story could have gone on for some time, more complex certainly, but it didn't mean that Thomas would die or have to be killed.
Here is a further WAG, that this little problem will come to a head sooner than later. Harry will come to realize that Eb was right about vampires, they cannot change who they are. However, then what? Harry still loves his brother.
vincentric:
I believe that WC vampires can change who they are and bring their demons under control otherwise the conversation that Harry had with Uriel in GS makes no sense.
“It’s hard for the half-born,” Uriel observed in a quiet, neutral tone. “What did you call him?” I asked. Belligerently. Which probably wasn’t really bright, but Thomas was my brother. I didn’t like the thought of anyone judging him. “The scions of mortals and immortals,” Uriel said, unperturbed. “Halflings, half-bloods, half-born. The mortal road is difficult enough without adding a share of our burdens to it as well.” I grunted. “That skinwalker got hold of him a while back. It broke something in him.” “The naagloshii feel a need to prove that every creature they meet is as flawed and prone to darkness as they themselves proved to be,” Uriel said. “It…gives them some measure of false peace, I think, to lie to themselves like that.” “You sound like you feel sorry for them,” I said, my voice hard. “I feel sorry for all the pain they have, and more so for all that they inflict on others. Your brother offers ample explanation for my feelings.” “What that thing did to Thomas. How is that different from what the Fallen did to me?” “He didn’t die as a result,” Uriel said bluntly. “He still has choice.” He added, in a softer voice, “What the naagloshii did to him was not your fault.”
Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 560). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
From this, I get that it's harder for the WC, but if they still have choice, then they can be redeemed in some fashion. Where there's life, there's hope, even for a WC vampire.
Mira:
--- Quote from: vincentric on July 25, 2024, 04:37:27 PM ---I believe that WC vampires can change who they are and bring their demons under control otherwise the conversation that Harry had with Uriel in GS makes no sense.
“It’s hard for the half-born,” Uriel observed in a quiet, neutral tone. “What did you call him?” I asked. Belligerently. Which probably wasn’t really bright, but Thomas was my brother. I didn’t like the thought of anyone judging him. “The scions of mortals and immortals,” Uriel said, unperturbed. “Halflings, half-bloods, half-born. The mortal road is difficult enough without adding a share of our burdens to it as well.” I grunted. “That skinwalker got hold of him a while back. It broke something in him.” “The naagloshii feel a need to prove that every creature they meet is as flawed and prone to darkness as they themselves proved to be,” Uriel said. “It…gives them some measure of false peace, I think, to lie to themselves like that.” “You sound like you feel sorry for them,” I said, my voice hard. “I feel sorry for all the pain they have, and more so for all that they inflict on others. Your brother offers ample explanation for my feelings.” “What that thing did to Thomas. How is that different from what the Fallen did to me?” “He didn’t die as a result,” Uriel said bluntly. “He still has choice.” He added, in a softer voice, “What the naagloshii did to him was not your fault.”
Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 560). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
From this, I get that it's harder for the WC, but if they still have choice, then they can be redeemed in some fashion. Where there's life, there's hope, even for a WC vampire.
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Harry is still trying to make an excuse for Thomas and kind of taking the blame for it. While Uriel isn't unsympathetic of the plight of Thomas, he doesn't come off the fact that Thomas does have choices.
That is the point, at the end of Turn Coat, seemingly Thomas has made his choice. He feels no guilt about killing those young women, he says thinking about it, "just makes him hard." No remorse. Uriel also tells Harry that he has no responsibility, it's the choice of Thomas. Now it's possible that his love for Justine prompted Thomas to chose yet again, but what happens when he finds out that she duped him?
g33k:
Whampires are still, in part, human.
They still (mostly) have their free will (until/unless their Hunger Demon gets into "starvation" mode).
--- Quote from: Mira on July 25, 2024, 09:17:25 PM --- ... That is the point, at the end of Turn Coat, seemingly Thomas has made his choice. He feels no guilt about killing those young women, he says thinking about it, "just makes him hard." No remorse ...
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You're falling into the Naagloshii's mental trap, just like Thomas did.
It took away Thomas' choice; he had had a stable life, without murdering people; that was his choice, and it was working. It kidnapped him, held him until the Hunger overcame his choice; it's much like forcing drugs onto someone, that strips their choice away, too.
It conditioned him to think that this was "who he was" -- but it's not. It's an inescapable part of him, but it doesn't define all of him, or even most of him... unless he chooses to let it (or if somebody takes his choice away).
In that scene, Thomas was still mentally/emotionally trapped by the Naagloshi's manipulations. Physically free, but (much like with Stockholm Syndrome) not mentally. As with most successful lies, it includes a nugget of truth: there really is a "monster" inside Thomas. But it doesn't follow that Thomas is necessarily & inescapably therefore "a monster."
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