The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Malcolm gives Harry more to bargain for

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Mira:

--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on March 26, 2024, 08:45:38 PM ---We know who Harry was named after, but it's actually entirely a logical leap that it was Malcolm who named him at all.. Padme didn't survive child birth and she named her kids.
And since classically the third name itself is a direct result of the 'hidden name's convention', I find it highly unlikely he just happened to get two. Wasn't for bargaining, it's for it's original purposes, protection.

--- End quote ---

So are you saying that Jim stole the idea from Star Wars?  Even if he did, Harry was born before the prequels to the original Star Wars trilby came out, the first one 1999.  So yeah, possible, but at the same time unlikely.  Just as likely that Malcolm a vanilla human stage magician would name his son after a well known and I imagine admired stage magicians, Harry Houdini and David Copperfield.  In fact I believe Harry said that back in Storm Front.. Now Malcolm could have lied to him about that, but what would be the point.

g33k:

--- Quote from: Mira on March 26, 2024, 01:41:11 PM --- ... Though I think it is fair to say that Malcolm knew Margaret was a wizard, I think less clear, how much he knew of her world ...
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IS that fair to say, though?  It's a viable speculation, but do we have any unambiguous canonical statement (or WoJ) that speaks directly to this?

I'm not saying you are wrong, I just don't recall any such clarity.


--- Quote from: Mira on March 26, 2024, 01:41:11 PM --- ... He knew enough apparently to go along with her desire to give birth to a star child ...
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Again:  do we know this?  Was he on-board with the "starborn" scheme?  I don't really count the scene in the dream (around the campfire), because it's evident that Malcolm was VERY clued-in at that point.


--- Quote from: Mira on March 26, 2024, 01:41:11 PM --- ... he named Harry after a magician that he admired ...
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Three(4?) magicians:  Harry Houdini, David Copperfield, & the Blackstones (Sr. & Jr),  if you'll forgive the nitpick.

The_Sibelis:

--- Quote from: Mira on March 27, 2024, 04:21:04 PM ---So are you saying that Jim stole the idea from Star Wars?
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pointing out the loosest of tropes existing elsewhere is not 'stealing'. Honestly, the things people focus on...

--- Quote ---Even if he did, Harry was born before the prequels to the original Star Wars trilby came out, the first one 1999.  So yeah, possible, but at the same time unlikely.  Just as likely that Malcolm a vanilla human stage magician would name his son after a well known and I imagine admired stage magicians, Harry Houdini and David Copperfield.  In fact I believe Harry said that back in Storm Front.. Now Malcolm could have lied to him about that, but what would be the point.

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Harry the unreliable narrator with a very confusing backstory even without the constant shifts?
Let's jump back to Star wars for the metaphor of chosen Orphan. Did luke know... Anything that was true? Leia what about Rey?
I find it far more likely they named him together, as they were indeed together before her death 👀
I find it fair less likely Malcolm named him unilaterally and just by happenstance gave him the extra protection of names in a verse where such things actually matter.(Something Harry mentioned in storm front, FM, GP, ECT)
I also find it fair more likely anything i say would be disagreed with lmao. I wish when people did that they'd see just how untenable their opinion quickly becomes. Lotta extra waffle when,' i personally disagree" would do just as well.

Mira:

--- Quote ---Harry the unreliable narrator with a very confusing backstory even without the constant shifts?
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Is he?  Everyone says that yet outside of a few short stories he is the only narrator we've got. So is he a liar? Just stupid? Maybe senile when he wrote his story?  Unless you got an alternative story out there..

--- Quote ---Let's jump back to Star wars for the metaphor of chosen Orphan. Did luke know... Anything that was true? Leia what about Rey?
--- End quote ---
What has that to do with anything?  Harry is a starborn, he would be so whether he was an orphan or not.  As far as his names go as Harry explains back in Fool Moon, it isn't the names themselves that would give Chauncy power over him, it is giving him, his names..  Harry was careful even to change the inflection of how to say the names he did give him to try and prevent Chauncy from having power over him..  Didn't matter if his name was John Jinglehimer Smith, or Harry David Copperfield Dresden, it was giving his name or part of his name that gave Chauncy power over him and what he bargained for.

--- Quote ---I find it far more likely they named him together, as they were indeed together before her death 👀
--- End quote ---
So what if they did? Harry's name in of itself has no power, at least up to this point it hasn't shown itself to have power of any kind or protection.

--- Quote ---I find it fair less likely Malcolm named him unilaterally and just by happenstance gave him the extra protection of names in a verse where such things actually matter.(Something Harry mentioned in storm front, FM, GP, ECT)
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Whether Malcolm did or didn't give him those names unilaterally doesn't matter.  The name, Harry, in of itself has no power or protection, nor David, nor Copperfield, nor Dresden, what gives power is that they are his names.

--- Quote ---Again:  do we know this?  Was he on-board with the "starborn" scheme?  I don't really count the scene in the dream (around the campfire), because it's evident that Malcolm was VERY clued-in at that point.
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Oh I think he was more clued in than you think, at least the importance of the conception, even if he didn't fully understand.  This is hinted at both by Margaret herself during Harry's soul gaze with Thomas in Blood Rites and when Lash begins to tell him about his power over Outsiders in White Night.  It takes two to make a baby, and that's even more important in the case of a star born.

The_Sibelis:

--- Quote from: Mira on March 27, 2024, 09:53:30 PM ---Is he?  Everyone says that yet outside of a few short stories he is the only narrator we've got. So is he a liar? Just stupid? Maybe senile when he wrote his story?  Unless you got an alternative story out there..
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s'matter of fact. We can rehash the slipping timelines theory anytime, just be ready to get dirty in there lol.
Oh, and this is a non sequitur I think, it doesn't dispute anything directly nor make any other points... Redirect to the straw man of other theories perhaps?


--- Quote ---What has that to do with anything?  Harry is a starborn, he would be so whether he was an orphan or not.
--- End quote ---
and what does THAT have to do with anything?
--- Quote ---As far as his names go as Harry explains back in Fool Moon, it isn't the names themselves that would give Chauncy power over him, it is giving him, his names..  Harry was careful even to change the inflection of how to say the names he did give him to try and prevent Chauncy from having power over him..  Didn't matter if his name was John Jinglehimer Smith, or Harry David Copperfield Dresden, it was giving his name or part of his name that gave Chauncy power over him and what he bargained for.
--- End quote ---
and? You're losing me here. Let's try to stay on the topic of whom could have contributed his names please. Like a mother and father might.🤷‍♂️


--- Quote ---So what if they did? Harry's name in of itself has no power, at least up to this point it hasn't shown itself to have power of any kind or protection.
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first you call up the exact point, more names is more insulation and then completely ignore that very simple supposition. The original purposes of naming, not just in the DF, but historically, biblically even. That's part of why it's your Christian name. 👀 So ya don't go giving yourself over to demons.

--- Quote ---Whether Malcolm did or didn't give him those names unilaterally doesn't matter.  The name, Harry, in of itself has no power or protection, nor David, nor Copperfield, nor Dresden, what gives power is that they are his names.
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what? I think its happening again where the correlation questions needed asking for clarification instead of jumping to wrong conclusions. None of that is Germain in response.

--- Quote ---Oh I think he was more clued in than you think, at least the importance of the conception, even if he didn't fully understand.  This is hinted at both by Margaret herself during Harry's soul gaze with Thomas in Blood Rites and when Lash begins to tell him about his power over Outsiders in White Night.  It takes two to make a baby, and that's even more important in the case of a star born.

--- End quote ---

Somebody tell me where I failed to communicate, 1 we cant know the process or causation behind his receiving multiple names but considering the real world connections to the meta verse of the DFs true naming convention its likely someone(s) given him more insulation from being controlled intentionally.
cause I just don't get it man...🤷‍♂️

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