The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Great another starborn theory, this time with vampires
Mira:
--- Quote from: Tinfoil hat on January 24, 2024, 07:34:54 PM ---Ah that the catch. Magic always has a price.
A starborn is sacrificed to keep the outsiders out but in exchange he/ she brings something back with him.
Plus dolist reason it would mess Harry up. Jim is that much of a bastard to do it
--- End quote ---
Somehow I don't think he'd do that to Harry, he has too many other ways..
g33k:
--- Quote from: Tinfoil hat on January 23, 2024, 11:01:02 AM --- There is a theory going around that the Red King and Pa Wraith are also starborn.
--- End quote ---
"Going around..." where?
Haven't seen it here.
--- Quote from: Tinfoil hat on January 23, 2024, 11:01:02 AM --- ... Evidence for this is a) for Pa Wraith the outsider protection thing he has. According to the theory he was a starborn of a previous cycle. Hence his expertise on starborn. He was sacrificed and came back with something extra. The defense thing he has.
--- End quote ---
Pretty sure it's wrong for Raith Père -- think I read WoJ stating that he just this cycle became aware of the whole "Starborn cycle" / Outsider thing, & decided he wanted to become a power-player, acting-upon instead of acted-upon... that's why he has such a substantive library: he was educating himself.
--- Quote from: Tinfoil hat on January 23, 2024, 11:01:02 AM --- ... As for the Red King his entire motif just gives outsider vibes. Lord of the outer night. Anyone? ...
--- End quote ---
But it's not just the RK -- his inner circle was the "Lords of the Outer Night" (I call them LOONs)
That said, "Outsiders" and "Outer Night" may just be coincidental, or may not be -- I'm very suspicious of this, myself! I do tend to think there's a connection, though I'm not absolutely convinced of one.
We also have the WoJ that the LOONs got so powerful because they actually were able to capture (and addict to their venom) the beings that the Mayans had been worshiping as gods.
I think the Ramp's are creatures of the Nevernever, natively; I note several similarities in the descriptions of the native-form (without fleshmask) Ramps, and the Ick... and suspect them of being related entities.
I think some long-ago Maya (or maybe Olmec... or even older) sorceror was exploring the deep Nevernever and got possessed -- or maybe summoned one, and got attacked/infected; thus becoming the Red King. IIRC WoJ says the Red King was about 6K years old...?
How all of that might play into an Outsider connection escapes me; maybe one (or both) of my theories is wrong, or maybe it's as simple as Ramp entities being every bit as susceptible to Outsider influence/possession as humans are...
--- Quote from: Tinfoil hat on January 23, 2024, 11:01:02 AM --- ... It also explains a lot of things such as why Harry keeps getting things that whisper in his head. First Lash and now the mantle. Its Uriel helping to prepare Harry for whats to come.
--- End quote ---
I think Lash & the mantle are both training-up Harry's willpower, yes!
But we've already seen that many Outsiders use psychic attacks, I don't think we need to look for another "possession" in the BAT: I bet Harry has to face off against multiple psychic Outsider attacks at one time.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I think Lash & the mantle are both training-up Harry's willpower, yes!
But we've already seen that many Outsiders use psychic attacks, I don't think we need to look for another "possession" in the BAT: I bet Harry has to face off against multiple psychic Outsider attacks at one time.
--- End quote ---
You touch on the main power that starborn Harry has over Outsiders I believe, he has been able to counter their psychic attacks on him to some extent. I think that ability will grow as the series goes on. That is the power he has over Outsiders that Lash was alluding to in White Night, and what Harry was remembering in Ghost Story, i.e. his sixteen year old self doing a Peewee Herman response to HWWB's attack.
KurtinStGeorge:
--- Quote from: g33k on January 25, 2024, 12:47:02 AM ---I think the Ramp's are creatures of the Nevernever, natively; I note several similarities in the descriptions of the native-form (without fleshmask) Ramps, and the Ick... and suspect them of being related entities.
--- End quote ---
It appears that after writing Storm Front Jim retconned the Red Court. In SF, Harry mentions that vampires are creatures of the Nevernever and that it takes most of their energy to simply maintain themselves on the mortal plane. I don’t remember if this was after Harry had his run-in with Bianca or if this bit of exposition occurred before that point in the story, but she was the only vampire we meet in SF, so Jim; through Harry, told us the Red Court are native to the Nevernever.
However, this bit about vampires being native to the Nevernever has never been mentioned again. It really doesn’t make sense anyway. The Red Court were once humans who got half-turned until they killed someone and went full Rampire. Maybe whatever created the Red King was native to the Nevernever, but since that time all the members of the Red Court were humans that had been turned. If a member of the Red Court could infect a non-human, we haven’t seen one or been told it was possible to do.
Mira:
--- Quote ---However, this bit about vampires being native to the Nevernever has never been mentioned again. It really doesn’t make sense anyway. The Red Court were once humans who got half-turned until they killed someone and went full Rampire. Maybe whatever created the Red King was native to the Nevernever, but since that time all the members of the Red Court were humans that had been turned. If a member of the Red Court could infect a non-human, we haven’t seen one or been told it was possible to do.
--- End quote ---
Though it might explain why Lea was able to put to sleep Susan's vampire side, though only for a little bit.. Or I seem to remember her doing it and it gave Harry hope which she swiftly dashed.. My memory of this is vague though.
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