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In Retrospect The Relevance Of Storm Front and Full Moon

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Conspiracy Theorist:

“mantles we have seen” you are predicating a theory upon something we haven’t seen, and that is magical thinking, rather than empiral proof.

There is a WOJ that Toot is becoming larger due to increasing importance, which is what you might be thinking of, but Mab is not Toot, she started Mortal and assumed the Mantle and the whole balance between the Courts (the entire plot of Summer Knight) shows this does not apply to the Mantles. They are self-regulating to maintain a balance. Seeking to expand the definition of Mantle doesn’t change this and in the case of Angels their essence has been explicitly called by Jim their Grace, not Mantle. Bob is nothing but spirit he is not a Mantle or anything like one.

From the Dresden Wiki “Kemmler's Heirs intend to call up ancients spirits using the Erlking and then devour them for power on Halloween Night during the powerful Darkhallow spell that will turn one of them into a god-like being with ungodly powers.[1]”

It would also include ripping the spirit from the living, like a lot of dark magic like the bloodline curse.

The Hulk is well accepted as an update of Jekyll and Hyde by Robert Louis Stephenson and is itself the classic man transforms into monster trope that we most commonly with werewolves and espiaclly the Loup Garou. I believe you may have got the wrong end of the wrong stick. The Hulk WOJ is in regards to Mouse drawing power from the Carpenters threshold, not Hercules.

Odin is not the only powered down elder god reference is made to Thor and WOJ exists as regards the wrestling book. Odin’s solution was to take up the Kringle Mantle, the other gods are eking out life amongst humans with the belief they can garner as celebrities, again a specific WOJ.

The WG is clearly the most powerful entity in the Dresdenverse and maintains that, as set out above, against all other entities. The WG merely believes in mortal free-will, and exercises self restraint in that regard, not expending power to help others but accumulating it through belief, and likely such instances as this. Creation is a closed system (until someone opens the Outer Gates) all energy released goes to the mortal world or the Never Never, both ultimately controlled by the WG.

There is nothing in Changes to suggest that the Grey Council siphoned off this power for themselves, no Darkhallow or equivalent mechanism to re-direct it to themselves. Odin himself is very careful to maintain his power level as is (baring the Kringle Mantle) as part of his bargain with Uriel to be able to stay involved in Mortal affairs. It should be noted Kringle and Uriel do lunch once a year. Uriel is keeping an eye on him.

The_Sibelis:

--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on July 25, 2023, 12:12:16 AM ---“mantles we have seen” you are predicating a theory upon something we haven’t seen, and that is magical thinking, rather than empiral proof.
--- End quote ---
actually it's predicted upon the variation in mantles seen, which are more than just the queens or even the fae, and those we know to exist through woj. And then extending through common themes throughout the DF that have been repeated. Almost like it's a self-contained system of magic and creation penned to be such. By a guy like Jim who has woj he likes to connect ideas through certain key descriptions and such.


--- Quote ---There is a WOJ that Toot is becoming larger due to increasing importance, which is what you might be thinking of, but Mab is not Toot, she started Mortal and assumed the Mantle and the whole balance between the Courts (the entire plot of Summer Knight)
--- End quote ---
and your missing that she's not the original, she started as human doesn't mean the winter queen did. Indeed MW is the original millennial old being, though her identity as MW is not. It became the strongest at the same she gave a portion of her authority to the WQ. Meaning she changed based on the passing of authority to a position. Just like the theory would say.(and became a fae mantle btw, that's an important distinction since her change reflected what she gave power to)

--- Quote ---shows this does not apply to the Mantles. They are self-regulating to maintain a balance. Seeking to expand the definition of Mantle doesn’t change this and in the case of Angels their essence has been explicitly called by Jim their Grace, not Mantle.
--- End quote ---
nonlinear statement, does not compute 🤷‍♂️ do you refer to the queens? The archive? Kringle who actually works to stay in the positive? How about Eldest. Is it the mantle compelling them, or are they compelled by their own nature and what exactly is the mantle of "eldest" if not an obvious nod of authority?
--- Quote ---Bob is nothing but spirit he is not a Mantle or anything like one.
--- End quote ---
actually I just pointed out how he is and can continue to elaborate. You seem to be having the same issue MR D did and think your going to state an opinion as fact instead of point to factual things to use as a basis for your opinion. 🤔 Are you sure your not just trying to make me "wrong" still?

--- Quote ---From the Dresden Wiki “Kemmler's Heirs intend to call up ancients spirits using the Erlking and then devour them for power on Halloween Night during the powerful Darkhallow spell that will turn one of them into a god-like being with ungodly powers.[1]”
--- End quote ---
😂😂😂😂😂😂 do not ever quote a fandom wiki at me, I've already made my opinion of those perfectly clear. They're not sources beyond facts presented in book or through woj. That's someone's opinion they wrote in, just like they named Nemesis a few years ago and stuff like that(they were WRONG) here,
Does Harry have an incorrect understanding of the Dark Hollow and other parts of the world?
Oh god yes.  I won’t say Harry is clueless, but his understanding of lots of things including the way that magic works is incomplete in many ways.  If only because he hasn’t been trusted by a lot of the wizarding community by a lot of the people who could have taught him better.  And a lot of the people who do know better aren’t correcting him because they think it’s important to learn these things on your own.  Harry’s going to be stumbling across things where he goes “Oh, well I didn’t understand this exactly right.”
Direct woj, and sense anything on the wiki is from Dresden's perspective alone it's definitely not right.


--- Quote ---It would also include ripping the spirit from the living, like a lot of dark magic like the bloodline curse.

The Hulk is well accepted as an update of Jekyll and Hyde by Robert Louis Stephenson and is itself the classic man transforms into monster trope that we most commonly with werewolves and espiaclly the Loup Garou. I believe you may have got the wrong end of the wrong stick. The Hulk WOJ is in regards to Mouse drawing power from the Carpenters threshold, not Hercules.
--- End quote ---
no wrong end to get there bud for me bud. The woj on Hercules and the hulk is much older than that happening in book.(maybe ask radiam, just a cursory search yields him talking about Hercules smashing his head, so it's not like it's an unknown woj to the people here)


--- Quote ---Odin is not the only powered down elder god reference is made to Thor and WOJ exists as regards the wrestling book. Odin’s solution was to take up the Kringle Mantle, the other gods are eking out life amongst humans with the belief they can garner as celebrities, again a specific WOJ.
--- End quote ---
🤷‍♂️ okay?


--- Quote ---The WG is clearly the most powerful entity in the Dresdenverse and maintains that, as set out above, against all other entities. The WG merely believes in mortal free-will, and exercises self restraint in that regard, not expending power to help others but accumulating it through belief, and likely such instances as this. Creation is a closed system (until someone opens the Outer Gates) all energy released goes to the mortal world or the Never Never, both ultimately controlled by the WG.
--- End quote ---
actually that's where your wrong. Things of the mortal nature, which includes ramps and wamps, have choice, and they can chose to make that energy go outside. Great example in BR with the curse or other summoning of outsiders, they can make things exist. That power is specifically for humans, and is the thing that lets certain creatures straddle the line and TWG can't act. Humans chose it. Or like the Kraken, were made to be it(which was also done with magic, with choice)

--- Quote ---There is nothing in Changes to suggest that the Grey Council siphoned off this power for themselves, no Darkhallow or equivalent mechanism to re-direct it to themselves.
--- End quote ---
indeed, and since Harry doesn't remember what happened after he used the knife there's a big gapping hole where I can insert that idea and it can't be dislocated from 🤷‍♂️
--- Quote ---Odin himself is very careful to maintain his power level as is (baring the Kringle Mantle) as part of his bargain with Uriel to be able to stay involved in Mortal affairs. It should be noted Kringle and Uriel do lunch once a year. Uriel is keeping an eye on him.

--- End quote ---
his power diminished with his loss of position and followers. No wholely assumed bargain clause needed. They do lunch because they're in similar fields of work, as per the woj you referenced, the keeping an eye on is your assumption of the situation.

Conspiracy Theorist:
We have not seen or been told about other Mantles, there is absolutely nothing to indicate a wide prevalence of Mantles .

The intimation is that Mab and Titania started off as the Ladies, and were the originals, Ethnui in her derision of Mab makes this clear, one of the Queens went on to become a Mother, the other we don’t know what happened. She merely swapped Mantles, not accreting additional power to her mantle. We have seen this process with the Ladies, and Mab stating Harry should kill Molly because she does not consider her ready to be Queen.

Eldest appears to be a Title, and denotes an accretion of power through importance like Toot. The Archive is not a Mantle despite being a construct as  it is transmitted by birth and limited to a particular matrilineal line, it is closer to the Loup Garou curse than a Mantle, where it is transmitted by the patrilineal line. Both create a compulsion to ensure succession.

A Mantle does not exist on its own, it has to find a host or return to the Queen or Mother, Lily’s transformation to stone to stop this occurring demonstrates this. The Mantles do not appear to be sentient.Bob is. Bob is not a construct he is the product of a reproductive event, given how we have seen the birth of Bonny. WOJ has it that we have seen both Bobs parents (most likely Lea and the British Prisoner) but Bob only needs a sanctum in the mortal world, when he resided in Winter he didn’t.

Fandom Wiki are a good source  of facts and WOJ  “They're not sources beyond facts presented in book or through woj.” Is not a criticism, they are not presenting an opinion but you appear to consider personal opinion Trumps facts and WOJ. As I said magical thinking.

It’s mortal free will which allows for Outsiders to be whistled in, the one thing the WG won’t interfere with.

Please provide the WOJ about the Hulk, if genuine it demonstrates poor research on the part of Jim (which would be worrying) the Hulk as a character only debuted in May 1962 far too late for one to be conflated with :) the other.

You cannot rely upon an absence of evidence to justify your theory as regards the Grey Council, that is an opinion not a theory.

Odin has sought to stay in the Mortal World to continue to involve himself in human events. Odin’s worship base was healthy until about 1,000 AD (the vikings) before Christianity started eating into it, much later than most of the other pantheons were supplanted by Christianity and he still has between 500 and 1,000 worshippers. This suggests a conscious decision on the part of Odin to surrender power when he had it rather than gradually lose it over time. He most likely traded it for the Kringle Mantle, to gain immortality. I doubt he is the original Kringle, but legend does conflate Odin and Kringle and he probably then promoted the conversion process amongst his followers as part of the agreement, boosting the WG further.

The_Sibelis:

--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on July 25, 2023, 09:28:46 AM ---We have not seen or been told about other Mantles, there is absolutely nothing to indicate a wide prevalence of Mantles .
--- End quote ---
we've been told specifically about the existence of other mantles. To list some specifics in case you've forgotten already, Hercules, Eldest fae lineages. The Archive, moving into the obvious logic, any being known by a different name or mask regardless of actuality of the being holds a mantle for it, because as per Odin Masks and mantles are not different.  Lord General of the Za lord's army. Said woj also implies EK is a mantle(how do you think he got so powerful to begin with?~sic), and probably more I'm forgetting.


--- Quote ---The intimation is that Mab and Titania started off as the Ladies, and were the originals, Ethnui in her derision of Mab makes this clear, one of the Queens went on to become a Mother, the other we don’t know what happened. She merely swapped Mantles, not accreting additional power to her mantle.
--- End quote ---
I don't know how your theory here effects mine at all, except I'm glad you admit one thing, she swapped up mantles. Also we have no idea when the first exchange happened so that's all conjecture on conjecture to talk about.
The only thing Enthiu makes clear is Mab was human, that much we know unless you can pull some quotes I didn't read?

--- Quote ---We have seen this process with the Ladies, and Mab stating Harry should kill Molly because she does not consider her ready to be Queen.

Eldest appears to be a Title, and denotes an accretion of power through importance like Toot
--- End quote ---
once again for those in the back, woj, they are mantles
--- Quote ---. The Archive is not a Mantle despite being a construct as  it is transmitted by birth and limited to a particular matrilineal line, it is closer to the Loup Garou curse than a Mantle, where it is transmitted by the patrilineal line. Both create a compulsion to ensure succession.
--- End quote ---
actually their both mantles, but let's stick with the archive for this, because your basically assuming the whole definition of a mantle to be maxed out at what you can say for sure(which is sometimes inaccurate as I've countered numerous points for you to just move on to erect the straw elsewhere), not on what you can actually disprove. This, this isn't how theorizing works mkay. And until you get off the vague reprovals like that I'm just going to ignore you and reiterate and elaborate on my theories every time you do it 🤷‍♂️


--- Quote ---A Mantle does not exist on its own, it has to find a host or return to the Queen or Mother, Lily’s transformation to stone to stop this occurring demonstrates this
--- End quote ---
conjecture followed by complete contradict of woj?🤔👀🤷‍♂️ It has to find a mirror. It actually finds the queen and mother because it goes to the closest mirror. This is directly stated in book.
--- Quote ---The Mantles do not appear to be sentient.
--- End quote ---
the blackstaffs not sentient, it IS a mantle, and despite both and being an inanimate object Eb still talks to it. 🤷‍♂️
--- Quote ---Bob is. Bob is not a construct he is the product of a reproductive event, given how we have seen the birth of Bonny. WOJ has it that we have seen both Bobs parents (most likely Lea and the British Prisoner) but Bob only needs a sanctum in the mortal world, when he resided in Winter he didn’t.
--- End quote ---
yep, and mantles only need to be worn to be connected to the living world 🤷‍♂️ an vise versa. Also Bob needs more than a sanctum, the sanctum is part of the deal denoted on the skull, he's in contract with the last person who touched it. A constructed deal. See, I don't disagree about the construction that's the point. That's the insulation. Thanks for agreeing, all these mantles ARE constructed. That's what makes them mantles and not possessions


--- Quote ---Fandom Wiki are a good source  of facts and WOJ  “They're not sources beyond facts presented in book or through woj.” Is not a criticism, they are not presenting an opinion but you appear to consider personal opinion Trumps facts and WOJ. As I said magical thinking.
--- End quote ---
they are presenting opinion, the difference is they're stating it as facts. I'm stating facts and then telling you my opinion of what they mean, magical thinking indeed. Now if only I could find someone who can discuss what the facts mean instead of trying to tell me what the facts do not outright say? Because the later mindset gets you no where, in theory, literally lol.


--- Quote ---It’s mortal free will which allows for Outsiders to be whistled in, the one thing the WG won’t interfere with.
--- End quote ---
like this, your stating a fact, but you somehow feel it limits other ideas around it by being so?


--- Quote ---Please provide the WOJ about the Hulk, if genuine it demonstrates poor research on the part of Jim (which would be worrying) the Hulk as a character only debuted in May 1962 far too late for one to be conflated with :) the other.
--- End quote ---
??? When you say things like this, I'm certain you're trolling. The idea of the berserker can evolve through Mr Hyde to hulk in time. I'm not sure how this applies... Though Jim probably followed the logic of "where the religious furor/legend's went" which has a lot of that passion being thrown into Wagner before settling in in the comics(whole documentary on the all hero mythology and comics)


--- Quote ---You cannot rely upon an absence of evidence to justify your theory as regards the Grey Council, that is an opinion not a theory.
--- End quote ---
that's exactly what I'm going to do, and that's exactly what an theory is. Devoid of evidence to the contrary, (which you can't use your opinion to say a thing isn't) That's exactly how theory craft works. "No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong." -Einstein. This misperception needs to stop. Unless you enjoy immovable object vs unstoppable force? I rather confess, I've been doing this for years now. Not just here and about the DF, but Harry Potter (I knew snape loved her and Harrys horcrux status before book 5) on Facebook, social media, RL. this? This is grinding old levels after I already beat the game. Good for keeping my skills sharp.


--- Quote ---Odin has sought to stay in the Mortal World to continue to involve himself in human events. Odin’s worship base was healthy until about 1,000 AD (the vikings) before Christianity started eating into it, much later than most of the other pantheons were supplanted by Christianity and he still has between 500 and 1,000 worshippers. This suggests a conscious decision on the part of Odin to surrender power when he had it rather than gradually lose it over time. He most likely traded it for the Kringle Mantle, to gain immortality. I doubt he is the original Kringle, but legend does conflate Odin and Kringle and he probably then promoted the conversion process amongst his followers as part of the agreement, boosting the WG further.

--- End quote ---
okay 🤷‍♂️ see I don't mind other people's theory, I point out where they don't work so they can be improved upon. Or if someone thinks their's somehow unmakes mine, which is never the case and as can be seen going backwards through this conversation, doesn't work too well no matter how many points they suddenly move on from to new fortifications... Precisely because they don't get the above Einstein quote.  Here I'll throw a woj at you anyway
--- Quote ---All that said… Not everything about the events of Changes has been shown, yet, and there are a lot of elements in it which are deliberately misleading within the context of that story taken on its own.

--- End quote ---
🤷‍♂️ keep in mind even when I don't directly mention it... I usually have some evidence anyway. I just forget 😂
So until Gawain starts banishing creatures with his pentagram shield, make mine Marvel!

The_Sibelis:

--- Quote ---Are you going to explore where the mantles come from?
We’ll have to as we go on, in terms of, to a certain degree, some of them have always been there. If we're talking about mantles in There’s all kinds of them. It’s not just Faerie, they’re all over the place. There are still mantles hanging around from Greek times. Greco-Roman mythology, **unintelligible** mythology. The gods are also around, in one form or another, most of them are around. Some of them got themselves killed. Because lets face it, some of those guys were idiots.
And I mean, you go back there and read, and it’s like, how could you possibly have survived that? The answer in the Dresden Files is that they didn't. They *unintelligible* up til they died. Sorry, Hercules, you can only go slamming your head into walls for so long. And if your mantle passed on to The Hulk, it sort of exists in people’s minds and imaginations now.
Info about really powerful beings
The Mothers are extremely powerful beings, I mean, they’re really really well, you can tell because they hardly ever show up on the real world. In the Dresden Files universe if you don’t show up on the real world, it’s because you’re too big to walk around there. For instance,  I think in the third book, when the Dragon is talking about how the Earth couldn't bear his weight, it’s not that the Earth itself would literally crack, it’s that reality would have issues trying to contain him, because every time he coughs, it would bend around like Neo in the Matrix. So, they spend most of their time NOT on the real world, they spend it hanging around in the Nevernever, all the really heavyweight guys do that. If you’re in the real world, well, the problem is that you’re in the world, and you’re kind of mortal, and something could come along and try and whack you, if they’re fast enough, or good enough, or lucky enough. Which makes Odin a kind of special guy, because he doesn't mind it, he thinks it’s awesome. But anyway, you can always tell. If there’s folks who don’t show up in the real world, it’s because they’re super big. So, like, an angel shows up, and it’s just sort of a whispered presence that one person is aware of, that’s because he’s just too big to show up here, it’s a giant sandbox, and he’s got to be very very careful to not squash the sandbox. So, he just shows up for that one bit.
--- End quote ---
Went ahead and did the woj afterwards since it refutes your conjecture on Odin as well. Looks like not only does Odin not mind mortality, but finds it pretty nifty too.
And look at that, the mantle of the hulk now existing as an idea just like I said. It's almost like I spent hundreds of hours skimming the site and woj section making solid foundations to my theory craft in an attempt to actually ascertain the truth and not just guess at it.
~The Sybilius
To give some wrote insight into how I operate look at the above quote. He goes from talking about mantles being around to also god's being around still too then on to a demigod who passed and his mantle. Jim basically lays out all the connections between mantles vs living gods right there. It even has a certain repetition of topic that I could compare to the Gettysburg address and Lincolns use of word repetition. See, this is what I can't get the allistics to understand. This is my savant syndrome manifest. 🤷‍♂️ Getting mads not going to stop me, trying to unmake my work only strengthens me, nothing's going to change except Jim's own choice. Happens all the time. But I'm going to keep making crazy connections nobody else is gonna see, cause that's who I am. It's what I do. And after 35 years I dam well know how to identify and fight Chuck's shadow warriors. Literally the origin of the hypersensitive ability to read way too deep into things, trauma response 🤷‍♂️

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