The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Reforming the WC
The_Sibelis:
--- Quote ---They can't.
Without the bond to Alfred/Demonreach, they cannot interact with the prison (except as interlopers).
--- End quote ---
Lily activated the circle trap without actually interfering with his functionality or yet impinging upon it's security. Would seem the absence of a warden but the need to use DR's primary function was already forethought.
--- Quote ---and their magic is much stronger against the Outsiders than most mortals' magic is).
--- End quote ---
How? Or When? Most of Harry's strength against them has come from his Will so far. Or the luck of having ordinary flammable material all around to create something not so easily sloughed off? Any time he's used his magic directly against outsiders sans any winter help, it's not done anything spectacularly different than anyone else's. (Here's looking at lord Raith's outsider based magical protection) the corner hounds for instance, were not more vulnerable to his magic compared to Eb's(and they used regular fire to greater effect there too) so what makes you think it's stronger magic specifically?
g33k:
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on July 29, 2023, 07:05:14 AM --- Lily activated the circle trap without actually interfering with his functionality or yet impinging upon it's security. Would seem the absence of a warden but the need to use DR's primary function was already forethought ...
--- End quote ---
That was a circle. Empower it, and it's a magically-empowered circle.
Had some extra enchantment's, no doubt, if you poured-in enough mojo... I presume the faerie ladies had enough. But in the end, it was still just a circle, and a very-minor piece of Demonreach's outer defenses.
She had no access from there to the inner defenses, nor to the prisoners; as you'll recall, Lily & Maeve were trying to breach that barrier.
As best I recall, there has been no hint that anybody but The Warden can put a being into the Well, or get them out.
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on July 29, 2023, 07:05:14 AM --- ... How? Or When? Most of Harry's strength against them has come from his Will so far. Or the luck of having ordinary flammable material all around to create something not so easily sloughed off? Any time he's used his magic directly against outsiders sans any winter help, it's not done anything spectacularly different than anyone else's. (Here's looking at lord Raith's outsider based magical protection) the corner hounds for instance, were not more vulnerable to his magic compared to Eb's(and they used regular fire to greater effect there too) so what makes you think it's stronger magic specifically?
--- End quote ---
Note that Ebenezer (along with Luccio, and Listens-to-Wind) were getting thrashed by the Outsiders, until Michael rescued them, per Proven Guilty.
It's not that Harry's magic is any "stronger," as such (no more so than being any other comparably-strong Wizard). It's that the Starborn have a birthright of power over Outsiders.
Raith's defenses were
(a) something unique, for which we don't have clear understanding or good parameters;
(b) the first time we saw Harry run up directly against Outsider magic;
(c) relatively-early in Harry's career, so he was relatively-weaker and less-experienced;
(d) something he didn't try to overcome: in classic Dresden fashion, he instantly switched tactics to a more-physical attack (keys to the face);
But, in the end... you're right: here, Harry's magic was a squib, in the face of the Outsider magic.
But in White Night, when Lash gains her freedom from Lasciel, she tells Harry that because of
--- Quote ---the circumstances of [his] birth ... a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances
--- End quote ---
he has:
--- Quote ---... the potential to wield power over the Outsiders
--- End quote ---
The_Sibelis:
--- Quote from: g33k on August 01, 2023, 04:08:42 AM ---That was a circle. Empower it, and it's a magically-empowered circle.
Had some extra enchantment's, no doubt, if you poured-in enough mojo... I presume the faerie ladies had enough. But in the end, it was still just a circle, and a very-minor piece of Demonreach's outer defenses.
She had no access from there to the inner defenses, nor to the prisoners; as you'll recall, Lily & Maeve were trying to breach that barrier.
As best I recall, there has been no hint that anybody but The Warden can put a being into the Well, or get them out.
--- End quote ---
it was the circle, not a circle. It wasn't empowered by lily, just activated. The island itself powered it. And as Dresden pointed out, magic circles can be used for summoning. When he summoned Mab her stopping to thank DR was all about the fact he could've just grabbed her and had made the distinction not to on his own. If he'd read it from Dresden she wouldn't have addressed the island spirit itself in that matter. So an outside being can activate the circle. Any sufficient mortal can summon with a circle? And DR doesn't need guidance to grab what's been summoned. Seems to me those three things add up to a back up system to use sans an actual Warden.
--- Quote ---Note that Ebenezer (along with Luccio, and Listens-to-Wind) were getting thrashed by the Outsiders, until Michael rescued them, per Proven Guilty.
It's not that Harry's magic is any "stronger," as such (no more so than being any other comparably-strong Wizard). It's that the Starborn have a birthright of power over Outsiders.
Raith's defenses were
(a) something unique, for which we don't have clear understanding or good parameters;
(b) the first time we saw Harry run up directly against Outsider magic;
(c) relatively-early in Harry's career, so he was relatively-weaker and less-experienced;
(d) something he didn't try to overcome: in classic Dresden fashion, he instantly switched tactics to a more-physical attack (keys to the face);
But, in the end... you're right: here, Harry's magic was a squib, in the face of the Outsider magic.
But in White Night, when Lash gains her freedom from Lasciel, she tells Harry that because of he has:
--- End quote ---
indeed, but that power does not necessarily manifest in his magic. (At least so far)
As others have minced Jim's word(especially when it's from the perspective of a known liar like a Fallen's spirit) I do wonder if that's not also translatable as "rule over". He did bend a walker to his will, even if it was just making it name itself.(another scene we have a woj question on if the wording was intentionally obscured with a simple comma)
g33k:
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on August 01, 2023, 05:17:44 AM --- it was the circle, not a circle. It wasn't empowered by lily, just activated. The island itself powered it.
--- End quote ---
Cite, please.
If "the island itself" powered the circle, why isn't it always-on? The island's always pumping power, after all! I don't argue that some of the power came from the island and/or the extra enchantments as originally laid-down with the circle... but.
I mean... there's something about a Circle that's inherently potent. Zero-magic Butters was able to power-up a zombie-proof circle and defy the same horde that took down Harry's own wards on his apartment.
But we know from Fool Moon that Kim (while not White-Council level) had non-trivial magic of her own, but not enough to power-up enough of a Circle to hold a Loup-Garou. We know Harry took some pains to restrain the Erlking, and still barely had enough mojo to do the job.
I think ancillary enchantments helped inform the nature of the circle (and the loophole of covering themselves with mud), but the circle itself needed some jump-starting from someone with Power.
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on August 01, 2023, 05:17:44 AM --- ... When he summoned Mab her stopping to thank DR was all about the fact he could've just grabbed her and had made the distinction not to on his own ...
--- End quote ---
I read that thanks very differently.
I think she was thanking DR for not simply curbstomping Maeve.
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on August 01, 2023, 05:17:44 AM --- ... Any sufficient mortal can summon with a circle?
--- End quote ---
I think it depends on the being, and on the summoning-ritual.
For example, I don't think any of the porn-stars had any personal magical mojo in Blood Rites... they just had HWWBehind's summoning-ritual. On the other hand, Harry's summoning of the Erlking in Dead Beat did need some magical power.
None of that speaks to whether the little wardens, or other members of the White Council, can use Demonreach to imprison supernatural BigBads: they clearly have plenty of mojo for summonings and to empower circles! ;)
I just don't think the island will open its prison (even inbound) without The Warden's say-so; just as it didn't open in Cold Days, despite the Ladies empowering the Circle, or Mab being summoned.
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on August 01, 2023, 05:17:44 AM ---... (especially when it's from the perspective of a known liar like a Fallen's spirit)
--- End quote ---
This is an excellent point.
I have my own WAG: that the manifestation of Lasciel's Shadow (with whom Harry conversed, nick-named Lash, and who eventually (if briefly) became Harry's friend & ally) wasn't the "real" Shadow. That Lasciel's Shadow survived Lash's destruction, and has been (more or less silently) observing from the depths of Harry's mind, ever since.
g33k:
--- Quote from: LordDresden2 on July 24, 2023, 03:38:36 AM --- ... But it's still gonna have to be the White Council, probably from necessity.
--- End quote ---
I very-strongly suspect that *somebody* (maybe several somebodies) will be taking down the White Council.
Here's the thing -- the Spookyside is just chock-full of predators. Some of them are carrying grudges. The odds are overwhelming that one or more Senior Council members are going to fall, soon. It may be an opportunistic backstab. It may be an "accident" in battle. It may just be letting someone get overmatched in battle against a foe. There are *lots* of ways for it to happen.
But when that begins... opportunistic predators will begin taking others; and taking out some lower-levels, too. And when it looks like the Senior Council cannot protect the rest of the WC... well.
Once that tree begins to fall, the predators who began that process more-or-less *have* to finish it. They have to take out the entire Senior Council, and most of the wardens: they cannot risk letting those particular enemies prepare a revenge-strike!
...
And the Paranet, frankly, is posed to replace it.
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