The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
So Fitz is...
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on November 30, 2022, 12:24:00 PM --- ... So I think it is with Finn, over the thousand years or so that his family has been cursed, I imagine they have looked into ways to lift the curse, then ways to mitigate it as much as possible. What did they learn? ...
In my opinion, since that circle was so vital to his protection and the protection of others, Finn would have fully understood that it was no ordinary circle and needed a fully qualified wizard to build and activate it ...
--- End quote ---
I think we may just have to agree to disagree, here.
???
;)
First, I don't think this info is easy to acquire; not even for those with strong motivations. Generally wizards don't advertise in the yellow pages. Even after you find a wizard, most of the ones available "for hire" will have found it more profitable to work for a wealthy noble (in past ages) or to pursue their own methods for wealth-generation, e.g. on the stock market, or smuggling high-value small items via Ways, etc (specifics depending on individual wizards' particular strengths & proclivities).
Furthermore, the wizards who are inclined to do something "because it's the right thing to do" might just find it better to kill a loup garou than to help him hide. I expect the average wizard of the White Council would call the Wardens to handle a loup garou!
Also: I don't think the MacFinns have had the kind of lives that foster reliable multi-generational knowledge... likely they've been forced to flee (abandoning everything (including ancestral records!)) more than once.
--- Quote from: Mira on November 30, 2022, 12:24:00 PM --- ... Finn would have fully understood that it was no ordinary circle and needed a fully qualified wizard to build and activate it. So why was he messing with someone like Kim? Yeah, she believed in his cause and wouldn't give him away, but I believe it would soon be obvious to him that she had no clue as to how to go about building his circle.
...
it is almost impossible to find a qualified wizard to build one in the first place. So he may have assumed though he was in the phone book under "W" that Harry was a crackpot. But why didn't he at least give him a shot instead of the unqualified Kim?
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I don't expect MacFinn had the kind of knowledge capable of evaluating magicians. How would you evaluate if one mechanic or another is a better choice to rebuild a transmission vs troubleshooting electrical glitches? Or which neurosurgeon is best to deal with an aneurism vs. a tumor? We don't know much about Kim's own strengths & specialties... maybe she was able to present some impressive-to-muggles feats of magic, which most wizards would recognize as fairly simple & low-powered. She may even have impressed herself.
Why not call upon "W for Wizard" Harry? Better an known ally like Kim -- with at least some magic -- than entrusting an utterly-unknown "crackpot" with such a critical secret! (YMMV)
--- Quote from: Mira on November 30, 2022, 12:24:00 PM --- ... I believe that Kim was as dishonest with him as she was with Harry. Had she survived, I think she would have eventually become a warlock.
--- End quote ---
You may be right; I don't think the novel is clear on this point.
My own reading is that the foundational "dishonesty" was Kim not being honest with herself: she wasn't "lying" to Harry, she was preserving MacFinn's confidentiality (much as Harry would, for one of his clients). Similarly, she wasn't "lying" to MacFinn, she thought she could get his circle working again. Such overconfidence is pretty common to young people... and of course arrogance is a common feature of wizards!
--- Quote from: Mira on November 30, 2022, 12:24:00 PM --- ... Never fully answered, was who knew what he was and who wrecked his circle? Or knew enough about magic to know what it did? The same guys that brought us the belts?
--- End quote ---
I thought Harry had concluded it was the Hexenwolves, looking for someone to cover their own tracks... or maybe that was WoJ? Or even just a fantheory...
Of course, Denton &Co are even less-likely to have the kind of magical theory to deduce the existence of MacFinn's circle, or to understand what it is/does; not even if they stumbled across it in a search!
The obvious conclusion then would be that yes, the same agency that gave them the belts, also gave them the info they needed to find/ruin MacFinn's circle.
We have a candidate or two... or more...
The "Black Council."
The Demigod of Discord.
Mab, grooming her future WinterKnight.
Some rando White Council wizard, looking to get Dresden killed.
Future!Harry, pulling strings that -- when he traveled back to see "who was pulling the strings?" -- nobody else was pulling, so he had to pull them himself, simply to avoid creating a timetravel paradox! They say each of us is our own worst enemy...
g33k:
One other point: I suspect the MacFinn circle dates back to the 1600's: IIRC, Bob reports that was the last major Loup Garou rampage on record, so presumably the MacFinn line has had the circle since (at least) that time.
Ed0517:
--- Quote from: Mira on November 29, 2022, 03:22:34 AM --- Nor do I buy that Finn didn't understand how the magic worked, too much was riding on that circle being whole. So was Kim in fact just a clever hustler with some magical ability? I'd say no, because supposedly she believed in the environmental cause that Finn championed. I think one thing was true, she had no clue as to what that circle was built for. She may have known Terra West and thought a Loop was just a male version of her, dangerous but not a monster. If Harry had no clue as to what a Loop was until Bob explained it to him, Kim didn't know.
--- End quote ---
I expect Finn had some basic concepts of the circle... but he SURELY should have known how very dangerous a Loup is. And if he had the circle concepts, he might want to make sure Kim knows this thing he becomes is a major ass-kicker. If he knew this much - he knows he needs a major talent to work on the circle.
I'd think with all their money and contacts, the MacFinns would have contact with the wizards. Have a guy on retainer. Think they couldn't get a White Council guy for a 10K/year retainer? Money would be insignificant to them.
--- Quote from: g33k on November 30, 2022, 12:32:58 AM ---
plenty of professional drivers -- for example -- don't understand how cars work; not to the degree needed to repair their own vehicle that they need to make a living; air into the tires, add fluids, maybe even oil changes &c... But they have to take it to a mechanic to do the substantive work.
--- End quote ---
I think a lot of them, most of the pros, will know something more than oil change. Even if just "Something in fuel injection is messed. Maybe the nozzle? "
He'd have some idea, if not the skill needed to fix it. Much like, say, an athletic trainer "I think you damaged the ACL" - but he doesn't try to fix it !
--- Quote from: g33k on November 30, 2022, 07:57:41 PM --- Even after you find a wizard, most of the ones available "for hire" will have found it more profitable to work for a wealthy noble
--- End quote ---
Um, the MacFinns ARE the wealthy nobles....
--- Quote ---Furthermore, the wizards who are inclined to do something "because it's the right thing to do" might just find it better to kill a loup garou than to help him hide. I expect the average wizard of the White Council would call the Wardens to handle a loup garou!
--- End quote ---
Maybe not. If you knew the curse is until the end of time.... and even killing Finn means the mantle (had to say it!) shifts... now you do not know where it is! Or what kind of nut it might infect! You help Finn because he is at least trying. Sort of like why a Marcone stays around - it's the devil you know and can predict. And if S*^#% goes down, you know who to look at.
--- Quote ---Similarly, she wasn't "lying" to MacFinn, she thought she could get his circle working again. Such overconfidence is pretty common to young people... and of course arrogance is a common feature of wizards!
--- End quote ---
WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER!!!!!!!!
--- Quote --- The obvious conclusion then would be that yes, the same agency that gave them the belts, also gave them the info they needed to find/ruin MacFinn's circle.
We have a candidate or two... or more...
The "Black Council."
--- End quote ---
I suspect the Black Council is another arm of the same agency. This is sabotage before the BC and their armies move. Damage stuff and create unrest.
--- Quote ---Mab, grooming her future WinterKnight.
--- End quote ---
No. Mab would not be creating such a threat to humans. Mab's a sniper, MacFinn is a grenade. Mab targets much more precisely.
--- Quote ---Some rando White Council wizard, looking to get Dresden killed.
--- End quote ---
Too unfocused. Again, too wide a field of fire.
--- Quote ---Future!Harry, pulling strings that -- when he traveled back to see "who was pulling the strings?" -- nobody else was pulling, so he had to pull them himself, simply to avoid creating a timetravel paradox!
--- End quote ---
a little too contrived. I'd be disappointed in Jim. Next thing, we find out Harry is going to be fine, because he's just six all this time and Malcolm comes out of the shower at the Ozarks Holiday Inn Express on their way to Eb's farm.
--- Quote from: g33k on November 30, 2022, 07:58:55 PM ---One other point: I suspect the MacFinn circle dates back to the 1600's: IIRC, Bob reports that was the last major Loup Garou rampage on record, so presumably the MacFinn line has had the circle since (at least) that time.
--- End quote ---
Which supports the idea they are pretty responsible about holding down the damage and you would tend to want to help them, for the general welfare
Mira:
--- Quote ---I expect Finn had some basic concepts of the circle... but he SURELY should have known how very dangerous a Loup is. And if he had the circle concepts, he might want to make sure Kim knows this thing he becomes is a major ass-kicker. If he knew this much - he knows he needs a major talent to work on the circle.
--- End quote ---
My point, how is it he didn't see through Kim?
--- Quote ---I'd think with all their money and contacts, the MacFinns would have contact with the wizards. Have a guy on retainer. Think they couldn't get a White Council guy for a 10K/year retainer? Money would be insignificant to them.
--- End quote ---
Or at least a guy that knew of one. Did Kim claim that?
--- Quote ---Which supports the idea they are pretty responsible about holding down the damage and you would tend to want to help them, for the general welfare
--- End quote ---
Don't have much to add to most of your arguments, except about the chicken dinner reply. While
yeah, most young people are arrogant and a bit know it all, Kim has a lot in common with Molly here. It could also be why unless kids with talent are taken under the wing of a wizard they fall easy prey to the temptation of using their talent to do stuff that ought not be attempted except by professionals, or if the professionals don't do them, there is a reason why. If they pull it off it leads them to think they can use it to more stuff, next thing you know you have a warlock on your hands.
--- Quote ---One other point: I suspect the MacFinn circle dates back to the 1600's: IIRC, Bob reports that was the last major Loup Garou rampage on record, so presumably the MacFinn line has had the circle since (at least) that time.
--- End quote ---
There is no proof of that, but it really makes no difference because Finn's family would have understood for the past five hundred years what the circle is and what it does.. And yeah, something as vital as the circle has proven to be, they would have learned all they could about it.
--- Quote ---First, I don't think this info is easy to acquire; not even for those with strong motivations. Generally wizards don't advertise in the yellow pages. Even after you find a wizard, most of the ones available "for hire" will have found it more profitable to work for a wealthy noble (in past ages) or to pursue their own methods for wealth-generation, e.g. on the stock market, or smuggling high-value small items via Ways, etc (specifics depending on individual wizards' particular strengths & proclivities).
--- End quote ---
True, only Harry does, but apparently some take it seriously, that's how 99% of his clients find out about him. Here is another question, why didn't Finn simply ask Kim if she knew of any wizards in the area that might help him?
--- Quote ---My own reading is that the foundational "dishonesty" was Kim not being honest with herself: she wasn't "lying" to Harry, she was preserving MacFinn's confidentiality (much as Harry would, for one of his clients). Similarly, she wasn't "lying" to MacFinn, she thought she could get his circle working again. Such overconfidence is pretty common to young people... and of course arrogance is a common feature of wizards!
--- End quote ---
Which makes no sense, because it was vital that that circle get remade.. It was clear because of it's nature Harry wasn't going to give her that information without a little more information from her. He also flat out tells her she doesn't have the chops to pull it off even if he told her how to build it. If she had simply come clean with him, chances are that Harry would have gone with her to look at the circle and help Finn. She compares herself to Harry because he isn't that much older than her and doesn't take into account, experience, training, and talent level. At that point confidentiality should have gone out the window, but Kim let her ego and perhaps her own ignorance get in the way.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on November 21, 2022, 10:10:14 PM --- ... But I also think if Chauncy was a total liar, what would be the point of Harry calling him up for information ...
--- End quote ---
Don't make the mistake of trying to apply an "always X / never Y" binary logic. Chauncy tells enough of the truth, enough of the time, to be known in the shadier parts of the wizarding world as a good source of info; he's not "a total liar" in the logic-puzzle sense of the Island of Liars & Truth-Tellers.
But he's Lucifer's front-man, his only real agenda is to get your soul for Hell... or just break out of a flawed circle & kill you (at a guess, dragging you to hell, so win-win for Chauncy!).
He'll hint at more-interesting / more-valuable info, try to lure you deeper into trusting him. He presents as a "reasonable businessman & info-broker," who only tries to break the circle because "one must observe the formalities;" that whole identity, the aspect of "reasonable," is itself a deception; a "lie" if you will.
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