The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Maggie white council spy
Tinfoil hat:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on September 09, 2022, 12:09:21 PM ---Margaret was old by the time Thomas was born. Luccio was her contemporary. Nobody sets out to star as the villain in their own story. Whatever she was at the end she had a backstory which got her there. In some senses the story implies that at first she had noble aims. So while she was becoming Margaret La Fay she was a part of wizard society. She was known and ran with her contemporaries.
She broke at least one of the Laws directly, The First Law. To the Council at large she was under a death sentence. She may have time traveled and she lived with Raith and there is no indication that he enthralled her at first. She abandoned her child to a life as a vampire. Since Eb was ignorant of the existence of Thomas we can assume it was because she wanted him ignorant. Since Eb was the wet works guy for the SC it is possible to assume that he went to that meeting at the direction of the SC to hear Maggie's pitch.
There is no indication in the text that Eb saw her after that point, which begs a couple of questions. When did he see Malcolm and when did he become aware of Harry?
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: morriswalters on September 09, 2022, 12:09:21 PM ---Part of my theory hangs on drakul's speech in BG. That the bearded men knew and plan his birth.
Eb seems to have come into contact with malcom at some point early on. And was probably under SC observation. Justin was probably in charge of that giving him the means and opportunity to get to harry first
--- End quote ---
g33k:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on September 09, 2022, 12:09:21 PM --- ... Luccio was her contemporary ...
--- End quote ---
I think Luccio may have been slightly older; exact timing, I think, is speculative. Once they each were over a century old, maybe the differences don't matter so much...
Wyatt Earp was associated with Dodge City from 1875-1879. Luccio was already a relatively-senior Warden in this timeframe (or so I infer, since she was warlock-hunting in Dodge without any backup in A Fistful of Warlocks): Dresden is notable for how much combat & nastiness he has seen for his age (more than "most wizards twice his age," and most of the Wardens are intimidated by his exploits), so we should probably put her in her 40's or 50's (or older) in AFoW, simply because she's not a "loose cannon" / "lone wolf" (compare the way Dresden usually operates with respect to other wizards). 1840 or so is probably the very latest she could have been born, back to 18-ought-something at the earliest.
Margaret was "over 100" at Harry's birth (I suspect Jim rounded her age to the nearest half-century, roughly; so closer to 100+ than "almost 150"). Harry was born mid/early 1970's (likely 72/73/74), so Margaret was born 1840-1870 (roughly - there's a fair bit of inference in that timing)).
So, between those speculations, I conclude that there was anywhere from 0-70 years' age-difference between them.
--- Quote from: morriswalters on September 09, 2022, 12:09:21 PM --- ... Nobody sets out to star as the villain in their own story. Whatever she was at the end she had a backstory which got her there. In some senses the story implies that at first she had noble aims ...
--- End quote ---
The novels are quite explicit about her "noble aims," it's more than merely "implied." Furthermore, I think she ALWAYS had "noble aims," never really abandoning her ideals. Luccio's description included "brilliant, erratic, passionate, committed, idealistic, talented, charming, insulting, bold, incautious, arrogant" ... but not "murderous" or "twisted" or "cruel" or "uncaring" &c. She may have strayed into "ends justify the means" territory -- strayed far enough that Hell thought they had a lock on her soul! -- but I don't think we have any textual basis to say she had gone entirely over to the "Dark Side." Much like Harry himself, she sometimes found herself treading darker paths out of necessity (and seems to have lost her way at least once).
--- Quote from: morriswalters on September 09, 2022, 12:09:21 PM --- ... She broke at least one of the Laws directly, The First Law. To the Council at large she was under a death sentence ...
--- End quote ---
Cite, please?
Quoting the Wiki:
--- Quote from: https://dresdenfiles.fandom.com/wiki/Margaret_LeFay --- ... She was considered a threat to the Laws of Magic and the Wardens were ordered to keep an eye on her ... She consistently attempted to prove how limited the Laws of Magic were by skirting them and pointing out the areas of "Grey Magic" as she called them and questioning their legitimacy. The Wardens were tasked with keeping an eye on her.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: morriswalters on September 09, 2022, 12:09:21 PM --- ... There is no indication in the text that Eb saw her after that point, which begs a couple of questions. When did he see Malcolm and when did he become aware of Harry?
--- End quote ---
I'll just go ahead and assert that Eb having met Malcom -- and learned about Harry -- is in itself "indication in the text" that Eb & Margaret were in (fairly robust) contact after she left Raith Pere.
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: g33k on September 09, 2022, 09:20:05 PM ---I think Luccio may have been slightly older; exact timing, I think, is speculative. Once they each were over a century old, maybe the differences don't matter so much...
Wyatt Earp was associated with Dodge City from 1875-1879. Luccio was already a relatively-senior Warden in this timeframe (or so I infer, since she was warlock-hunting in Dodge without any backup in A Fistful of Warlocks): Dresden is notable for how much combat & nastiness he has seen for his age (more than "most wizards twice his age," and most of the Wardens are intimidated by his exploits), so we should probably put her in her 40's or 50's (or older) in AFoW, simply because she's not a "loose cannon" / "lone wolf" (compare the way Dresden usually operates with respect to other wizards). 1840 or so is probably the very latest she could have been born, back to 18-ought-something at the earliest.
Margaret was "over 100" at Harry's birth (I suspect Jim rounded her age to the nearest half-century, roughly; so closer to 100+ than "almost 150"). Harry was born mid/early 1970's (likely 72/73/74), so Margaret was born 1840-1870 (roughly - there's a fair bit of inference in that timing)).
So, between those speculations, I conclude that there was anywhere from 0-70 years' age-difference between them.
The novels are quite explicit about her "noble aims," it's more than merely "implied." Furthermore, I think she ALWAYS had "noble aims," never really abandoning her ideals. Luccio's description included "brilliant, erratic, passionate, committed, idealistic, talented, charming, insulting, bold, incautious, arrogant" ... but not "murderous" or "twisted" or "cruel" or "uncaring" &c. She may have strayed into "ends justify the means" territory -- strayed far enough that Hell thought they had a lock on her soul! -- but I don't think we have any textual basis to say she had gone entirely over to the "Dark Side." Much like Harry himself, she sometimes found herself treading darker paths out of necessity (and seems to have lost her way at least once).
Cite, please?
Quoting the Wiki:
I'll just go ahead and assert that Eb having met Malcom -- and learned about Harry -- is in itself "indication in the text" that Eb & Margaret were in (fairly robust) contact after she left Raith Pere.
--- End quote ---
Maggie's mother died in 1810 per the official timeline. Which makes her about 160 when Harry is born.
--- Quote ---CIRCA 1810: Ebenezar’s wife dies.
--- End quote ---
Here's your citation about the First Law. This is Eb talking to Harry.
--- Quote from: Blood Rites ---She was guilty of violating the First Law, among others,
--- End quote ---
And the text begs to disagree about being in contact with Eb, again from Blood Rites.
--- Quote ---"She did," Ebenezar confirmed. "I don't know why, but for some reason she turned away from her previous associates—including Justin DuMorne. After that, nowhere was safe for her. She ran from her former allies and from the Wardens for perhaps two years. And she ran from me. I had my orders regarding her as well."
--- End quote ---
Butcher is heavily retconning events so this is offered without warranty. But that text would suggest that up until the time Harry was born he neither saw Malcolm or Maggie, if then.The overall picture is that Maggie was a piece of work to quote Goodman Grey, and not in a good way.
@Tinfoil hat
You might be right or wrong but other then the short story where he retcons Morgan into a proto Arch Angel there isn't really any thing in the text to lock it down. I no longer have an opinion. I'm simply feeding information into the conversation.
g33k:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on September 09, 2022, 10:26:02 PM ---Maggie's mother died in 1810 per the official timeline. Which makes her about 160 when Harry is born.
--- End quote ---
Thank you! So that does indeed make Anastasia Luccio and Margaret "LeFay" McCoy very-much contemporaries.
(though the Timeline, it must be noted, is fannish & entirely unofficial)
--- Quote from: morriswalters on September 09, 2022, 10:26:02 PM ---... Here's your citation about the First Law. This is Eb talking to Harry ...
--- End quote ---
Thank you! But this is... odd. Eb speaks very specifically (1st Law "among others" (note the plural there) means at least three separate causes for a death-sentence!) ... but I'm pretty sure the Wardens, overall, did not consider her under a death-sentence:
* Luccio (Warden-captain) "should" have said something to Harry, in discussing Margaret LeFay; "broken it to him gently," maybe; but that was the moment.
* Morgan negotiated with LeFay (promised to protect Harry); but we know how Morgan treats Lawbreakers!I wonder if Eb had private information (unknown to the Wardens/WC generally)? I wonder if Eb had private mis-information?
I wonder if there's a retcon, or a simple discrepancy / continuity error (un-caught by the beta-readers)? Or something else...
--- Quote from: morriswalters on September 09, 2022, 10:26:02 PM --- ... And the text begs to disagree about being in contact with Eb, again from Blood Rites ...
--- End quote ---
And again, thanks! :)
But we know he somehow knew Malcolm Dresden; knew him well-enough to praise him very-highly indeed (I suspect a Soulgaze). A few notions:
* using "blood of my blood" for tracking (as Harry used from Charity to track Molly), Eb could have tracked/surveilled his daughter, and approached Malcolm when Margaret wasn't with him
* maybe Malcolm was a friend of Eb's from before Margaret took up with Raith; maybe Margaret (running/hiding & in extremis) sought out Malcolm specifically because she knew of Eb's high opinion
* maybe both (1) & (2)I expect there are other ways to resolve this.
--- Quote from: morriswalters on September 09, 2022, 10:26:02 PM ---... Butcher is heavily retconning events so this is offered without warranty ...
--- End quote ---
I think he's actually very-minimally retconning. Instead, I think he has gleefully dropped in elements of foreshadowing, and overt "hints" & "clues" ... but also dropped in explicit "red herrings" to mislead people. In particular, he has said both that Harry is an unreliable narrator, & that many people Harry sees as "bad guys" / "part of the problem" are anything but; and many he sees as "fighting the good fight" / "on the right side" are actually bad-guys in disguise.
Case in point: Mab. When we met her, she was presented as the archetype of "Evil Queen" & "Wicked Faerie" (Harry joked that she gave lessons & certifications, and inspected her protoge's for sufficient-wickedness). But no: as it turns out, her primary function is Protector of Our Reality, the general in charge of the battle at the Outer Gates; Winter is about 90% "Anti-Outsider" & only a tiny portion is being all "Summer's Opposite." She is, arguably, one of the most-extreme Good Guys(or Gals) in the entire Dresden Files. Not exactly a kindly or friendly one; but solidly on the Right Side.
morriswalters:
As I said it's offered without warranty. For all I know Butcher will make her a closet angel. He throws a lot of smoke to confuse the issue. For instance about half the time when he has Bob speak he's treating you like a mushroom by having Bob feeding you manure while keeping you in the dark. In terms of Mab he's all over the map as it suits him. Sometime making her sympathetic and other times making her heartless and cruel. In any case this was an info dump only. I no longer feel that I have any real idea what he's doing past Cold Days.
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