The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
g33k:
--- Quote from: EBRIEN on April 28, 2022, 07:30:32 PM --- Consider that Lasciel's coin was taken up by another after Harry. Would that extinguish the shadow residing in his head? If the fallen are bound to the coin, would the acceptance by another be enough? Sort of an "Oh well...not gonna waste anymore time on Harry when I've got another host willingly embracing me."
--- End quote ---
I don't think the Fallen have any control over (or feedback from) their Shadows... except (maybe) Anduriel?
"Master of Shadows" has maybe got an extra leg up... ).
They are like photocopies -- you can put it on a corkboard, use it as a blueprint, stuff it in a filing-cabinet, run it through a shredder. None of it affects (or is affected by) the Fallen who made it.
So Lasciel has a new host? Pffft. Other Shadows will just go, "fine, I'm warming up in the bullpen."
--- Quote from: EBRIEN on April 28, 2022, 07:30:32 PM --- ... As far as Sanya being in Chicago, Marcone has a coin and was in play throughout whether he used Nam's powers or not...
--- End quote ---
Yes, but... did either Knight ever do anything about Marcone or Namshiel?
I repeat: two Knights of the Cross teamed up in combat against one opponent.
Given what their explicit mission is -- Denarians -- I will point out that Jim could have written
(a) either Knight as sufficient;
(b) or even Billy;
(c) or any of Harry's other friends;
but that two Knights stumbling into the same scene & acting in concert is really, really strong evidence they are specifically facing Denarian/Fallen action.
--- Quote from: EBRIEN on April 28, 2022, 07:30:32 PM --- I like the theory and that's one of the main reasons I'm here---to listen and reflect on ideas of this community. Just not sure about this one.
--- End quote ---
Oh, I'm not "sure" about it, either; it's clearly just a WAG, not a surety!
But I think the key "KotC action" argument is just incredibly strong... and there's some circumstantial lines of evidence that IMO run much more strongly to corroboration than to contradiction.
As you say -- interesting ideas from the community are a great feature of this forum! And if someone "proves" me wrong... I'm OK with that, too! (noting that no WAG is proven or disproven until WoJ or its actual proof/disproof in canonical DF stories).
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on April 28, 2022, 08:47:26 PM --- ... When wizards lose it, it is very bad ass..
--- End quote ---
Yeah... except Harry didn't use much wizardry, either. Mostly, he used the Winter Mantle.
Lasciel don't care. Wizardry or Mantles... power in the hands of mortals is a wonderful thing!
Power corrupts; and in that moment -- barring KotC intervention -- Harry had all the power needed vs. Rudy.
--- Quote from: Mira on April 28, 2022, 08:47:26 PM --- ... I don't think the Winter Mantle had anything to do with Harry striking out at Rudolph, that was pure reaction when he witnessed something one should never witness, and Harry simply lost it ...
--- End quote ---
I agree that Harry "just lost it" when he saw something so terrible to him.
And there was the WK-mantle: cold revenge, territoriality, rage, and extreme physicality; just sitting there for him to pick up and use.
Look at what he did: he was about to commit murder, out of revenge; he beat the crap out of a dear friend; and started to do so with another.
Tell me again -- more convincingly -- why he'd do those (especially Sanya & Butters!) if his "inner rage" wasn't getting artificially-amped-up...?
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: g33k on April 30, 2022, 01:41:22 AM ---Rage, sure. But he self-controlled it. The key issue is: Harry didn't do it. Harry didn't use his magic to do something "wrong."
I'm pointing to times where Harry used beyond-mortal means -- whether his wizard power, his WK-mantle, or an ancient Rampire blood-magic ritual -- to actually do something wrong.
I note he was also similarly-tempted under Hexenwulf-belt influence, for example.
--- End quote ---
Actually his Mother's spirit may have stopped him.
--- Quote ---I held it in my hand, felt its cool strength, its ordered and rational geometry. The five-pointed star within the circle was the ancient sign of white wizardry, the only remembrance of my mother. The cold strength of the pentacle gave me a chance, a moment to think again, to clear my head.
I took deep breaths, struggling to see clear of the anger, the hate, the deep lust that burned within me for vengeance and retribution.
--- End quote ---
You see you can hold rage in a thousand times till the time comes that you can't. This happens again when he finds that Raith killed his mother. This is why that Listens To Wind offer to help him with his anger issues.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Yeah... except Harry didn't use much wizardry, either. Mostly, he used the Winter Mantle.
--- End quote ---
The Winter Mantle makes it hard for him, but he has lost it wizardwise as well. The latter admittedly under the influence of Lasciel's Shadow, but when the Ghouls killed and ate part of those sixteen year old Warden trainees, Harry lost it totally, there was no Winter Mantle then. He also lost it at Bianca's party after he realized those kids were being poisoned or turned, that they tried to unmake a Holy Sword and a few other things. but he totally lost it and there wasn't any Shadow influence yet either.
--- Quote ---Look at what he did: he was about to commit murder, out of revenge; he beat the crap out of a dear friend; and started to do so with another.
--- End quote ---
I need to listen tomorrow, and perhaps you as well to either Fresh Air or the show that comes on around 10:00 am on NPR radio tomorrow. A psychologist is going to come to explain why it is that people sometimes "snap" or "lose it"
--- Quote ---“Why We Snap” outlines nine, but some of the most common ones are a life or death threat, threat to a loved one, threat to your home, or threat to your tribe. “Our brain is wired to constantly be on the lookout for threats,” Fields says. “In response to sudden danger, we react automatically; you can't think about
--- End quote ---
That is what happened to Harry, seeing Murphy shot then dying in his arms, he snapped, if he were just an ordinary vanilla human it still would have happened. He would have taken a weapon or used his bare hands, but he would have gone after Rudolph and through anyone who tried to stop him. Let us not also forget that Rudolph wasn't just some random careless cop who's bad habits finally caught up to him. He had been after Murphy and Harry for some time, so Harry had every reason in the moment to believe what Rudolph did was no accident. Harry is a powerful wizard and Winter Knight to boot , I think the only thing in that moment that could have stopped him was a warning burn from a Holy Sword. Which it did, Butters and Sanya understood that and forgave him.
morriswalters:
Snapping implies a loss of control. In terms of character development why did Butcher have Harry lose his shit? What did the passage accomplish? What was it meant to do? I understand the emotional shorthand that Butcher is using, at least in part.
Butcher is showing you the monster. The other Harry. the Harry that is arrogant, full of rage, and absolutely cock sure of himself. Who is certain that what he is doing is right, and the way it's supposed to be.
Rudolph isn't the Red King, he's only a threat by accident. When Harry kills Susan you can accept it however morally grey, because Harry is still thinking and you know that Susan would have done whatever it took to save her daughter. Harry is evil in this passage because killing Rudolph serves no purpose. Murphy is dead and that can't be changed. Harry is angry because Rudolph took one of his toys and broke it. He wants Rudolph destroyed. He wants him to suffer and be reduced to something no longer quite human.
Remember what Lea told Harry in Ghost Story?
--- Quote ---“Is that the lesson you took from the memory?” Lea asked, her smile spreading. “You were clearly being prepared to be an enforcer.” “It seems that way,” I hedged, trying to read her expression. “But Justin never actually tried to get me to hurt anyone.” “Why would he wish you to be armed against him before he was certain of your loyalty?” Lea asked. “He would have. It was inevitable.” “Probably,” I said. “But there’s no way we can know, really. It’s a long way from breaking boards in practice to breaking bones in life.” “Quite. Because convincing a young mortal to believe that it is right and proper to use magic for violence is a delicate process and one that cannot be rushed.”
Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (pp. 353-354). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
--- End quote ---
My contention is that now you know. Harry was programmed to react in this way.
I feel sorry for Harry because as a character he's been abused by people close to him. He was programmed to be a psychopath. He's trying to be something more. I wish I was going to see how it all turns out.
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