Did I miss something...?

[Yuillegan]

Then Jim isn't reading what he writes. Can that be read another way?

I mean, that wouldn't be out of the ordinary for Jim. That aside, that line doesn't have to be taken literally. It can be read as "on the orders of", so whether Jim meant it literally or not, it can be interpreted in such a way.

Strength comes in many forms after all - physical, magical, political, authoritarian, militaristic etc. I mean, we don't assume Jim meant Lucifer was investing his physical muscles after all.

Unintended consequences for Lucifer, he appears to have a blindspot for such, otherwise he wouldn’t be where he is.

Assuming of course that Lucifer doesn't want to be in Hell...I believe in Milton's Paradise Lost Lucifer famously says "It is better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven". Or that Lucifer being in Hell isn't part of TWG's plan etc. Although I don't think the latter lines up with what we've seen in the series or what Jim has said. But I do suspect Hell is where Lucifer wanted to be.

[Arjan]

Or hell is where humans placed him. They created the stories after all.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Assuming of course that Lucifer doesn't want to be in Hell...I believe in Milton's Paradise Lost Lucifer famously says "It is better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven". Or that Lucifer being in Hell isn't part of TWG's plan etc. Although I don't think the latter lines up with what we've seen in the series or what Jim has said. But I do suspect Hell is where Lucifer wanted to be.

That’s what Lucifer would say.

The White God created the Never Never, humanity shaped it into its various zones and Kingdoms via belief, it is distinct from the likes of Tartarus in Hades realm and I presume that it is currently modelled after Dante Allegheiri’s 9 circles which using the poet Virgil created a clear adoption of a division from the Greco Romano Tartarus.

Basically Dante redecorated when Lucifer wasn’t looking and he is stuck with it. I wonder if Uriel put Dante up to it?

Hell is other peoples decorating choices you have to live with.

[morriswalters]

I mean, that wouldn't be out of the ordinary for Jim. That aside, that line doesn't have to be taken literally. It can be read as "on the orders of", so whether Jim meant it literally or not, it can be interpreted in such a way.

First my standard disclaimer, it's your book when you read it.

I love Butcher's prose, but language is language.  If a simple statement as in one archangel did one thing then another archangel did another, then it is pettifogging if he then tells me that it was only true in a way.  I don't care who connected the hose to the fireplug, I am concerned with who supplied the water.

In terms of Hell, wherever it is, it isn't Heaven.  They are called Fallen because they were cast out. And that the devil might rather reign in Hell than serve in Heaven doesn't obviate the fact that he wants to be is on the Golden Throne in Heaven.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

That’s what he was after reigning in Heaven in the first place, and an ambition he hasn’t given up on. Remember that after everything Lucifer is behind the scenes with his own plans, using and misusing the schemes of others to achieve his ends, and that includes the Denarians, the Circle, Drakul and the Black Court, the Fomor, the Outsiders and Nemesis. Perhaps even Larry Fowler. Either directly or indirectly every group of villains is doing his bidding.

In the same way but clearer we have seen Vadderung/Odin, Mab and Winter, Hades, even Marcone doing the bidding of the White God.either directly or indirectly. Now the Accorded nations are welded together more strongly (except the White Council whom both groups rightly seem to despise) than ever before Swartalves, The Archive, Summer, the Megapodes the White Court and even the Ghouls have set down their side.

I think the Paranet will apply for accorded status badly undercutting the White Council, a computer literate group of mortal practitioners potentially by population the largest Accorded Nation. This is why I think the White God is born from the Singularity and the Endgame is the last cycle before that event where everything is still up for grabs, Harry’s cycle including who gets to sit on the Golden Throne, and if not, whether it is crushed beneath the feet of Outsiders.

[Mr. Mouse]

I think the Paranet will apply for accorded status badly undercutting the White Council, a computer literate group of mortal practitioners potentially by population the largest Accorded Nation.

With Elaine representing them as their "leader," being she's a co-founder without obligation to another accorded nation?

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Why yes, Harry would not seek any position of authority, and as Winter Knight would be authorised to endorse their application on behalf of Winter. I can see Vadderung endorsing and River Shoulders, Marcone and the Summer and White Courts.

Harry will see them safely get Accorded Status under Elaine Mallory, and the ungrateful bastards will immediately turn round and appoint him to a position of responsibility within the Paranet such as The Warden, head of the Enforcement  and Education Services of the Paranet tasked with keeping potential wizards and warlocks out of the hands of the White Council and managing supernatural threats to the Paranet. Elaine would do the diplomacy, business interests, and general management.

No good deed goes unpunished, and Harry is in the best position for the job, making it what it should be, avoiding killing kids and allowing them to grow up to be wizards. With Demonreach he can put the worst young warlocks on the protocol and get them treatment, via the Paranet. Harry has shown with Molly and Simon that he can help some who are not the worst even without drastic intervention, who would have been killed by the White Council.

[g33k]

... and the ungrateful bastards will immediately turn round and appoint him to a position of responsibility within the Paranet such as The Warden, head of the Enforcement ...

Mmmm!
Savor the irony!

... Education Services of the Paranet tasked with keeping potential wizards and warlocks out of the hands of the White Council ...

Making him & the Paranet a direct competitor of the White Council, trying to scoop Apprentices out from under them.  That implies the kind of troubles Harry never gets into... </SARCASM> i.e. it's very likely!

[Conspiracy Theorist]

It is very Harry, the Paranet doing to him exactly what the White Council did.

I do feel however that Harry is going to break away from the Master/Apprentice system and try and integrate young wizards into the modern mortal world, probably by turning the Castle into the Vadderung School of Magic of the University of Chicago, and educating them alongside lesser practitioners in training and mortals interested in aspects of magic. Imagine if the Alphas had been able to formally undertake a minor in magic, or psychology students being taught a unit on Parapsychology by Professor Lindquist.

[g33k]

I do feel however that Harry is going to break away from the Master/Apprentice system and try and integrate young wizards into the modern mortal world ...

I am inclined to agree... if Jim sees a way to write this arc in an engaging (and sufficiently Harry-tormenting) manner; he may not feel this works, for whatever reason.

However, I still think:

• The Paranet is likely to be a key element, for the purposes of identifying/recruiting the young Talents.
• Paranet is likely to be a key element, for the purposes of providing most of the staffing &c; Mort and other non-White-Council resources Harry has (who are are likely (a)willing / (b)available) are insufficient to the chore.
• The castle is unlikely to be where "Hogwarts 2.0" is situated, because Harry feels "proximity-to-Harry" is dangerous.

[Yuillegan]

Or hell is where humans placed him. They created the stories after all.

Although I know you might not agree, we do know from Jim that these spirits existed prior to mortals being created. We know that Angels and many Gods existed before time began, before Creation. So a lot of things happened before human belief had any impact. Rather, they learned the stories from others. The beliefs didn't come from nowhere. Jim once was asked if there had been multiple Creators given that human belief changes things, and so as belief changes the retroactively empowered different beings. Jim replied that the questioner was assigning limits where there aren't any - that it isn't so much the beings that change but mortal understanding of who and what they are that does.

So, to put that in context of your statement, Hell and Lucifer always existed, it's just mortal understanding of those things that change. Mortal belief doesn't really change that sort of thing. It just learns more about it.

First my standard disclaimer, it's your book when you read it.

I love Butcher's prose, but language is language.  If a simple statement as in one archangel did one thing then another archangel did another, then it is pettifogging if he then tells me that it was only true in a way.  I don't care who connected the hose to the fireplug, I am concerned with who supplied the water.

In terms of Hell, wherever it is, it isn't Heaven.  They are called Fallen because they were cast out. And that the devil might rather reign in Hell than serve in Heaven doesn't obviate the fact that he wants to be is on the Golden Throne in Heaven.

I like your standard disclaimer. I always assume that of course, but it's nice to hear it all the same.

I agree, the supplier of the power is the issue. I think the likely explanation is that when he wrote Small Favor, he literally meant Lucifer supplied the power. I think he has revised that idea somewhat (for reasons that are unknown) and needs it to be a lieutenant. Based on what we have even seen or heard about "normal" angels, it is hardly beyond their power, in fact it is actually well inside their abilities. Given that Lucifer is an archangel, it's a fairly small move for him. I think the later text does hint that Lucifer might have other reasons for not being directly involved. I mean, if you go back far enough we are told the Fallen cannot act directly. Hence why the Denarians are around. But then we see some contradiction over the series and are all left wondering what happened.

I think that very much depends on the story. In some interpretations, Heaven is a totalitarian dictatorship, and Hell is the place of freedom. Now I doubt this is true of the Dresden Files but when it comes to fiction anything is possible. In as much as we know about the Fallen in the Dresden Files, they "chose" (as much as they can) to not be angels anymore. An angel isn't a species, it's an office. The "species" is spirit. I think when it comes to such beings though it affects their very being to occupy or vacate an office, unlike mortals, and so the spirit that was an angel becomes Fallen, a sort of anti-angel, a negative of the same being. Why that is so is unclear but my guess would be it is to do with the very nature of holiness and sin.

In any case, we don't know the story the Dresden Files has gone with. Perhaps the Fallen were cast out. Perhaps they left of their own accord and set up shop elsewhere. In some stories, like the Lucifer comic, the throne of Heaven is the last thing Lucifer wants. He doesn't want to rule Creation, he simply wishes to be free of it. I don't know what the Lucifer in the Dresden Files wants, all I know is that he is having an "argument" with The White God (the Creator and ruler of the Dresden Files Creation/multiverse). What the nature of that argument is, what the positions are, and what that looks like is mostly unclear, but we do know it has something to do with influencing mortals to choose one way or another. Ultimately, we cannot assume that the Dresden Files' version of Lucifer, or the Fall, or the War in Heaven, is exactly like that of the Bible. There are already enough differences that we must be open-minded to other possibilities.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Time was originally non-linear, it was imposed by the White God for humanity to develop. The imposition of linear time allows for the creation of the White God to take place in the future, but as soon as the White God is created they have always existed before even what we know a linear time. Therefore both God Created Man and Man Created God are equally valid.

However until the loop is closed there is a potential weakness, hence the cycle and it’s Endgame.

[Yuillegan]

Time is relative. To mortals, it is linear. To other beings, not so much. The more powerful the being, the less linear it is. I suspect at the TWG's level all time is happening all at once, so from TWG's perspective the loop IS closed.

Does that matter in terms of the story? Yes and no. On the one hand, we are only ever likely to see it from a linear perspective as that's how Harry perceives time (not to mention Jim). On the other hand, what's happening off screen does impact things in the story and so it can't just be events that happen from Harry's perspective that matter otherwise it would make Harry TWG...which he isn't.

The universe itself doesn't operate in an entirely linear fashion, in our own reality. Stands to reason that the same would apply in Dresden's reality.

As far as I understand most Christian doctrine, and based on what Jim has said about TWG and his servants, the Creator has always existed (at least as far as we understand things at a mortal level). Certainly before Creation happened. Therefore TWG isn't ever Created within its own Creation. If your theory is that TWG creates itself within it's own Creation, which in turn makes Creation, that suggests reality is a loop (or some sort of Russian doll like thing). It's possible, but a paradox. More likely is TWG always existing and creating Creation, and then becoming a part/inserting itself into Creation. From mortal linear perspective it would appear that TWG comes into Creation after Creation has happened, but from the Outside it would be that TWG was always a part of Creation.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

A loop like in a loop the loop.

[Arjan]

Although I know you might not agree, we do know from Jim that these spirits existed prior to mortals being created. We know that Angels and many Gods existed before time began, before Creation. So a lot of things happened before human belief had any impact. Rather, they learned the stories from others. The beliefs didn't come from nowhere. Jim once was asked if there had been multiple Creators given that human belief changes things, and so as belief changes the retroactively empowered different beings. Jim replied that the questioner was assigning limits where there aren't any - that it isn't so much the beings that change but mortal understanding of who and what they are that does.

Hell as we now it now is a relative new invention. The old testament does not even have a clear idea about it. So the beings are there but the whole trappings as how they appear to us is another matter. Hell itself might just be part of that understanding.

Jim tells here far less than he seems to tell.