The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Demonreach's spells and Turn Coat

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Yuillegan:
Very different scenarios.

The Naagloshii are creatures of spirit, they are closer to being like angels than physical beings. While they are not demons like Chauncy, I would say they are quite similar to Fae yet no mortal origin. They are not like Wraiths or other such full-spirit creatures. But they are much more spirit than physical, mortal being. They are Immortals after all (the original Naagloshii I mean).

The Fallen in the Coins are travelling through the physical world in a vessel they were bound in, used by the will of mortals. Just like the Knights of the Cross and their Swords. Thresholds don't bother either of them in those circumstances. The only thing that has stopped them to my memory were the angelic guards at the Carpenter house.

I'd say those wards keep out everything but mortal creatures. As we know though, there are defences that can be activated to keep everything out if needed. I suspect there are very few beings that could break-in via brute force.

 

morriswalters:

--- Quote from: seanham on February 17, 2022, 05:16:34 AM ---I am currently re-reading Turn Coat, and I came across a very interesting line when the Naagloshii encountered the spells around the cottage and tower (page 447 of the paperback)
This appears to say that Shagnasty has seen spells like this before, AKA Merlin's work. So where else could he have seen this work? We know that the Naagloshii are based in the American Southwest, and typically Merlin lore comes out of Europe, so did Merlin do more spell work in America, or did the Naagloshii travel across the pond to Europe sometime. Also, any ideas what else would require this complex level of spell work to be laid down?

--- End quote ---
I'm going to offer some thoughts, I won't dignify it as a wag. One is a matter of semantics. Demonereach was built and I quote.
--- Quote ---“Merlin didn’t build the prison five times,” Bob said. “He built it once. In five different times. All at the same time.”

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 173). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
--- End quote ---
The semantic issue arises out of the arrow of time, build a thing in the past and it exists in all time going forward.  If on the other hand you build it in the future and want it in the past then you have to build it backwards. It doesn't make sense otherwise.

The second note is about who could know of those symbols. There are two sets of characters in the books who could know. Angels and the Archive. Since the Archive contains the body of knowledge of the human race, if the symbols were used by humans she knows and understands them. And of course angels are know it all's.

A final note. If the Oblivion War is meant to wipe out all knowledge of the things that live in the prison then you have to accept that the prison will eventually need to pass out of human memory. That implies that there will be a final Warden.

Conspiracy Theorist:
I suspect there is no written record of Demonreach, and that the Merlin and the Archive have been working at cross purposes all along.

Now Thomas and Lara are Venators, I am not sure Thomas has been downside before Peace Talks, but Lara must after Battle Ground realise Demonreach is a prison. And Harry is about to marry her. And the Archive is likely to be invited to the wedding. Oh dear......

morriswalters:
I will point out that the symbols are symbols and as such part of the human lexicon.  If the Archive doesn't know them then she isn't what Jim says she is.

Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: morriswalters on March 06, 2022, 07:48:13 PM ---I'm going to offer some thoughts, I won't dignify it as a wag. One is a matter of semantics. Demonereach was built and I quote.The semantic issue arises out of the arrow of time, build a thing in the past and it exists in all time going forward.  If on the other hand you build it in the future and want it in the past then you have to build it backwards. It doesn't make sense otherwise.

The second note is about who could know of those symbols. There are two sets of characters in the books who could know. Angels and the Archive. Since the Archive contains the body of knowledge of the human race, if the symbols were used by humans she knows and understands them. And of course angels are know it all's.

A final note. If the Oblivion War is meant to wipe out all knowledge of the things that live in the prison then you have to accept that the prison will eventually need to pass out of human memory. That implies that there will be a final Warden.

--- End quote ---
Well, one could argue by building it in 5 different time periods simultaneously, he was building it both forward and backward at the same time (depending on his perspective or the perspective of anything watching).

From a physics perspective, I'd say he was building it outside the normal passage of time relative to the universe (obviously not relative to himself). A bubble of separated time, if you like. This is why he would appear to be in several points of space-time simultaneously (which of course is impossible in physics). In fact, I suspect in relation to himself, he was building the prison just the once. Kind of like being in the centre of Venn diagram made of five circles. He's in all yet also in his own space. A space only possible due to him being in it and linking the five other spaces.

There are others apart from the Archive and angels who could have known what those symbols are - gods, higher-level demons, certain faeries etc. I suspect many such powerful beings could know that sort of thing. Also, any wizards who learned Merlin's magic (or even his predecessors) could well know his stuff potentially. Harder to say though.

Is the Oblivion War meant to wipe out knowledge of what is in the prison? I might have missed that. I didn't really see the two being related myself.


--- Quote from: morriswalters on March 07, 2022, 12:24:17 AM ---I will point out that the symbols are symbols and as such part of the human lexicon.  If the Archive doesn't know them then she isn't what Jim says she is.

--- End quote ---
Well, the point of such a archetype like the Archive in the story apart from having them as an information source/dump is also that their information has holes/can be wrong. It really helps with those sucker punches that Jim never uses...

The Archive has sort of changed a bit over the series. At first she was just the repository of all human knowledge that had been gathered by her predecessors. Then she became the repository of all human knowledge ever written down (even if it were later destroyed, it was now embedded within her). First she simply used to learn things like any other human. Then she was able to learn anything that had been written by anyone, anywhere.

Of course...not all knowledge is recorded. So one enormous gap in her knowledge would be any oral knowledge. She also would not have access to information that was only in people's heads. That's a few big gaps already.

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