The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
BrainFireBob:
I personally have no issue with the initial number of Starborn, they only matter if they have metaphysical talent. Listens probably falls in this bracket, Paranet level.
Chicago, though, is explained in series. Chicago is a travel nexus. It is a railroad nexus, an air nexus, a sea travel nexus, a river network nexus.
Chicago was elevated in the 19th century to alliw for sewers and water control. Magically, therefore, Chicago exists suspended between land, sea, and air.
Further, I believe the background series has implied politics that Harry missed. Namely, the Red Court and White Court were engaged un trying to sieze Chicago. It's why the council left Harry alone- he setup residence in a foreign territory.
Victor Sells, iirc, worked for SilverCo- Papa Raith's creature. Three way battle for Chicago's vice between Raith, Bianca (Ariana's creature) and Marcone (no-one's creature, but appears to be a White Council creature viz Harry). In short, it's a magic Wild West border town. Which implies territorial proximity- or being on another border.
Chicago is therefore a city of boundaries and pathways, perhaps more than anywhere than Constantinople.
So the series happens there
Conspiracy Theorist:
--- Quote from: Snark Knight on March 01, 2022, 09:15:48 PM ---I hadn't connected this before, but it doesn't make much sense that the Winter Lady before Maeve would have died (assuming that's what he means by "not fared so well") last time a starborn was running around, if the cycle is 666 years and Maeve & Sarissa's father being the "famous Austrian composer" dates them as born not likely earlier than the 1600's.
So there pretty much must have been two Winter Ladies under Mab before Maeve got the role.
--- End quote ---
Drakul we know has been running around for some time. Probably with scissors. Made of steel. On Halloween.
I have thought the whole Chicago above and Stone Table was to allow for a failed Lady or Queen to involuntarily pass on their Mantle to someone else better suited (but they still let Maeve run around?). The Ladies may be especially prone to failure.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on March 01, 2022, 04:09:00 PM ---I wouldn't worry too much about random numbers Butcher pulled out of his butt. Chicago didn't exist 666 years ago. Since he set the books in Chicago he therefore must center the story around that locale. The idea of Demonreach is the weakest because of that choice. It's 4000 miles from London. No one from the era of Hastings had any idea at that moment that 5 freshwater lakes existed in North America. And no one other than someone who walked here knew of North America. How Merlin figured this out is a mystery. The Caspian Sea is the largest lake and it isn't in Chicago. So if you needed a big lake and were in Europe you would have went East and not West to find your fresh water lake. In any sense where logic applies the fact that Demonreach exists in Chicago implies it exists because someone in Chicago today put it there for some reason.
Regarding Harry as Starborn as far as the text is concerned the genesis of the idea is exposed by Eb when he discusses a meeting where Margaret laid out a plan to do something that she thought the White Council might buy into. How's that for a run on sentence? There are two ways to look at her pregnancy. She was either pregnant when she ran or just randomly tripped over Malcolm while looking for a random sperm donor for her plan. Color me skeptical on the latter of those two possibilities.
The markings on Demonreach and the castle are interesting. That the Skin Walker isn't frightened suggests that he doesn't associate them with a prison capable of holding him. I'm thinking old ones or angels, someone from his other existence.
--- End quote ---
Totally get what you're saying. As I said, I was very annoyed about the relevance of Chicago because it didn't make much sense for things like Demonreach or millennia-old races/organisations that had established their HQ's there...except the White Council and a few others. Which is when I realised Jim must have a reason for Chicago being special (or else my head might explode). Perhaps Chicago was built on sacred ground or perhaps it is the location of a future prophecy. Perhaps Demonreach was felt from across the world. I could see Merlin getting some information about an island in a distant and unknown land (to the Euro-centric world) - perhaps Vadderung said "hey I know this great place to lock up monsters if you're interested?", but it also could be events in Harry's future that make Demonreach important in the past i.e. if you believe Harry is Merlin or connected to Merlin he interfered with the past.
Oh I think she definitely was pregnant. How else did she "find the strength to escape Lord Raith" as Harry was told by someone (Lea perhaps?). No, she must have fallen in love with Michael while with Raith and that gave her the strength to resist him.
The Naagloshii wasn't afraid of the markings...but it was frustrated by them. Whether it knew the origin of them or not, it was forced to respect the power behind them. Was there angelic script? Do Old One's even have a form of writing? I thought the runes were merely ancient proto-human script (i.e. proto-norse, ancient egyptian etc). Maybe even some Hyborean or Atlantean script (we know Atlantis existed in the Dresden Files after all...not so sure about Hyborean but Jim is a big Conan fan).
--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on March 01, 2022, 05:46:14 PM ---Demonreach was put there for the principal reason, the genius loci. Merlin might have figured where future cycles would hit, so that may have been a secondary reason if the old time traveller was aware this would be a very tricky cycle as it also involves the Apocalypse.
I have argued that people were not sure until relatively recently where Demonreach was in the mortal world even Kemmler, as it was accessed from the NeverNever where the next best form of transport was horse and sailboat. You are right a lot of Old World Wizards would have looked to the Caspian Sea for centuries. Kemmler knew it was in the New World when he was Warden, but that gives an truly enormous area to search, especially when it is immune to divination.
I think the 50k is a gross overstatement to hide things. Halloween is the day that the barrier between the mortal and the supernatural is at its weakest, and the witching hour when a practitioner is at their strongest. If it’s birth whic is suggested, then I suspect it’s when the soul of the infant fully separates from that of his mother, they would be overlapping until then. I wonder what a pregnant lady looks like through the third eye? A jumble of overlapping and flickering images I would expect.
The searchlight could have been large enough to cover more than one big city and the next nearest is Milwaukee subject of the unseelie incursion of 94. Maybe not everyone had as accurate an mapping of where the searchlight would hit this time so the maternity wards in Chicago were ignored because all the Starborn chasers were in Milwaukee, and most only figured this out in 94.
--- End quote ---
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGgyJNMA4q8 This video at 42:00 Jim says there are 40-50,000 of them originally (not so much now).
--- Quote from: Mira on March 01, 2022, 07:12:09 PM ---Which, unless the point of having that many is for Harry to unite into a star born army to repel an Outsider invasion, is a real disappointment. One also has to ask, what is the point? I mean out of the fifty thousand born this cycle, how many have the talent or are even aware of or care about Outsiders? More to the point, if they are so common, aside from the Outsider thing, what is so special about them that they are basically top secret information? What is the White Council afraid of? Would they rather Harry got the story from Drakul or Listen? Now that has the potential for fake news that could really do some damage.
--- End quote ---
See, I was thinking it was a bit more like Supernatural (the TV show) where Azazel the demon feeds his blood to young babies, which taints them and gives them psychic powers but also one of them will become the leader of the demons (and in the end, the vessel for Lucifer).
So star born are actually meant to lead the Outsiders and bring them in. They're not meant to repel them. They're meant to control and lead them. It just so happens that means they also can kick them out and actually hurt them too. A double-edged sword.
My reasoning for this is that I believe that Lucifer is the one who created/creates star born and it's part of his argument with TWG. I have a much longer post about star born being like the antichrist(s) if you want to read it. But essentially I think they are not meant to be heroes. Which sets up the trope of Harry turning against his darker nature to do good...which is a huge theme of the Dresden Files. Thomas does it all the time, Molly has done it inconsistently yet still done it, Harry of course is the case in point.
I think the White Council (and others like Vadderung) are concerned that once these beings realise their power they could really do some damage. They don't believe they will turn against their natures (which is typical of the Council and another constant of the books). Harry of course constantly demonstrates that he is more than the monster they believe him to be. Doesn't mean he doesn't fall short at times either, but he does try to do good and often succeeds.
Truth is though, nowhere has it been said star born are good or intended as such. In fact, Jim has said the opposite is effectively true. Given the reactions of various beings who know about star born I would say that it is consistent. They view them as weapons, as destructive elements, as tools to shape the future. The "good" guys seem scared of them. The bad guys seem to want to use them.
--- Quote from: Snark Knight on March 01, 2022, 09:15:48 PM ---I hadn't connected this before, but it doesn't make much sense that the Winter Lady before Maeve would have died (assuming that's what he means by "not fared so well") last time a starborn was running around, if the cycle is 666 years and Maeve & Sarissa's father being the "famous Austrian composer" dates them as born not likely earlier than the 1600's.
So there pretty much must have been two Winter Ladies under Mab before Maeve got the role.
--- End quote ---
I believe that's the case. One died around Hastings, and I am unsure about the second.
--- Quote from: BrainFireBob on March 01, 2022, 11:12:11 PM ---I personally have no issue with the initial number of Starborn, they only matter if they have metaphysical talent. Listens probably falls in this bracket, Paranet level.
Chicago, though, is explained in series. Chicago is a travel nexus. It is a railroad nexus, an air nexus, a sea travel nexus, a river network nexus.
Chicago was elevated in the 19th century to alliw for sewers and water control. Magically, therefore, Chicago exists suspended between land, sea, and air.
Further, I believe the background series has implied politics that Harry missed. Namely, the Red Court and White Court were engaged un trying to sieze Chicago. It's why the council left Harry alone- he setup residence in a foreign territory.
Victor Sells, iirc, worked for SilverCo- Papa Raith's creature. Three way battle for Chicago's vice between Raith, Bianca (Ariana's creature) and Marcone (no-one's creature, but appears to be a White Council creature viz Harry). In short, it's a magic Wild West border town. Which implies territorial proximity- or being on another border.
Chicago is therefore a city of boundaries and pathways, perhaps more than anywhere than Constantinople.
So the series happens there
--- End quote ---
I like this. Great stuff!
Mira:
--- Quote ---Truth is though, nowhere has it been said star born are good or intended as such. In fact, Jim has said the opposite is effectively true. Given the reactions of various beings who know about star born I would say that it is consistent. They view them as weapons, as destructive elements, as tools to shape the future. The "good" guys seem scared of them. The bad guys seem to want to use them.
--- End quote ---
I don't disagree, however I would add that the White Council wanted to be part of this game as well. I has written a while back that they also had intended to use Margaret to get their own advantage. That is why she rebelled in the first place against them and for a while went off the deep end. Then she stumbled across pure goodness, it changed her and in her love for Malcolm she decided that mankind was worth saving. There was better way to throw a monkey wrench in everyone's plans,which the conception with Malcolm and birth of Harry did.
The series has also has balance as a consistent theme, with Malcolm as Harry's father Margaret
balanced out the darkness with the light. Oh Harry does have many of the dark qualities that make
a star born, but he also has just as many of the qualities that make up a good man from his father.
This is what sets him apart from the rest of the star born. However none of it explains why no one will sit him down and tell him the truth about what he is and what he was meant to do.
Conspiracy Theorist:
The White Council wanted Harry like they wanted the Eye, as a weapon.
The vote to oust Harry was the final realisation that they could never control him.
So what is their Plan B? Not the Eye, they started the ouster of Harry before they realised it was in play. Call the Eye it Plan C. The White Council have something nobody knows about to keep them in the game, another Starborn stashed away? Something else? If so what? Here’s a nasty thought, Drakul is working with the Merlin and the price of his help was Wild Bill, Yoshi, Carlos and the death of Harry Dresden, dangerous Starborn. Chandler was not part of the price so he gets to be stashed elsewhere.
Listen was working with Black Council/Fomor, in which case it makes sense Merlin is working with Drakul, and Rudy was the Merlin’s leg man in Chicago.
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