The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Ages of Characters

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Con:

--- Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on January 06, 2022, 05:12:53 AM ---Cassius is much older, especially as his full name was Quintus Cassius.  That suggests he could have been born at least 1500 years ago.  It was the guy that Harry saw crucified when he soulgazed Ursiel who was headed for the California gold rush when he became a denarian.  That's the old west connection you're think of.

--- End quote ---

Ooooh yeah you're right. I was thinking Quintus Cassius was a pretentious name for the Old West, but I just figured He was a pretentious douche who either chose his own name or was in a family of venatores with minor talent who became a Denarian.

Yuillegan:
Per WOJ, Angels and many of the Gods of the various religions existed prior to reality. So, the Titans of Greek Mythology, Odin, Ymir, Enki, Ra, Amun, Ptah, Gaia, Oranous, Phanes, Pontus, The Yellow Emperor of the Celestial Bureaucracy, Izanagi and Izanami, etc. Anyone involved in the a Creation myth. Perhaps more. The idea being that all of them remember Creation a bit differently and so have wildly different versions, yet all are the same story.

I think we can safely assume, given the nature of Outsiders and the familiarity of Outsiders with such powerful beings as Angels and Gods, that the Outsiders and presumably the Old Ones also pre-date Creation. In a sense, it's almost a given that the Outsiders "pre-date" reality given that from their perspective, all time would be happening all at once. Outside of time, reality would be a closed circle. Beginning and end are not really sensible terms from that perspective. To them, it's all happening all at once. Which means, wherever they enter isn't quite as important as when they enter.

So to summarise: The Creator, the Angels, some of the Gods and presumably some demons (depending on your legend), and the Outsiders and the Old Ones all pre-date Creation of Reality.

So Uriel and the Walkers are all as old as each other, at least from the Universe's perspective. From their own perspective that's a far more difficult question.

Odin, and potentially the Mothers (or whatever being(s) the Queen of Faerie are from), perhaps Hades and Ethniu (although neither were involved in Creation myths, it doesn't necessarily count them out), Laciel, Anduriel, Namshiel (and all other Denarians we have met), and all the Angels - all pre-date Reality.

Demonreach wasn't made "outside" of time, just across multiple times (and likely multiple dimensions and universes). So he at most it as old as there were people...which isn't that old really.

Ferrovax is an interesting one. Dragons supposedly were in charge of making sure things were happening the way they should, and did things like move rivers around (or start them). Serious things. Ferro could well be older than any form of life on the planet, potentially. Very hard to pinpoint. But Ethniu seemed to imply he was younger. And both were implied to be younger than Vadderung.

Drakul is almost certainly older than humanity, considering the Black Court have been around "since the dawn of humankind" or something like that. The being itself could be a lot older.

I think Lord Raith is older than Nicodemus, but I could be wrong. I seem to remember reading something about that.

Con:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on January 06, 2022, 06:01:04 AM ---Per WOJ, Angels and many of the Gods of the various religions existed prior to reality. So, the Titans of Greek Mythology, Odin, Ymir, Enki, Ra, Amun, Ptah, Gaia, Oranous, Phanes, Pontus, The Yellow Emperor of the Celestial Bureaucracy, Izanagi and Izanami, etc. Anyone involved in the a Creation myth. Perhaps more. The idea being that all of them remember Creation a bit differently and so have wildly different versions, yet all are the same story.
--- End quote ---


Fair enough that WOJ did occur to me at some point, but I was doing things as linearly as possible as for Creation several billion years before the world coalesced into a planet, let alone life, let alone dinosaurs. Let alone the humans whom the Gods needed for worship. So if said Gods were their for Creation, they would still need to be somehow present for humans. Humans are for the most part linear, so as Humans understood them this was as linear as I could make them.


--- Quote from: Yuillegan on January 06, 2022, 06:01:04 AM ---I think we can safely assume, given the nature of Outsiders and the familiarity of Outsiders with such powerful beings as Angels and Gods, that the Outsiders and presumably the Old Ones also pre-date Creation. In a sense, it's almost a given that the Outsiders "pre-date" reality given that from their perspective, all time would be happening all at once. Outside of time, reality would be a closed circle. Beginning and end are not really sensible terms from that perspective. To them, it's all happening all at once. Which means, wherever they enter isn't quite as important as when they enter.
--- End quote ---
Right which also suggests time as a factor as measurable by one moment to the next. Rashid says most of the time the Outer Gates could be quite peaceful, and other things like 'most years it wouldn't matter. Admittedly he also says 'Always in danger'. All of those are still time measurements. I'm not disagreeing with you exactly just offering another perspective. Human linear as it is.


--- Quote from: Yuillegan on January 06, 2022, 06:01:04 AM ---So to summarise: The Creator, the Angels, some of the Gods and presumably some demons (depending on your legend), and the Outsiders and the Old Ones all pre-date Creation of Reality.
--- End quote ---
Said demons would seem to have been confirmed by Thomas and the nature of the Oblivion War. Which again depends on Human knowledge or memory of them within a certain time frame of soceity.


--- Quote from: Yuillegan on January 06, 2022, 06:01:04 AM ---So Uriel and the Walkers are all as old as each other, at least from the Universe's perspective. From their own perspective that's a far more difficult question.

Odin, and potentially the Mothers (or whatever being(s) the Queen of Faerie are from), perhaps Hades and Ethniu (although neither were involved in Creation myths, it doesn't necessarily count them out), Laciel, Anduriel, Namshiel (and all other Denarians we have met), and all the Angels - all pre-date Reality.
--- End quote ---
Odin probably. Ethniu I'm not convinced. Hades-I just don't see him being at Creation. My best guess is Underworld was created to imprison Titans, Demons, Old Gods. (Although Greek Myths that was more Tartarus who himself was a bit more Primordial/Titan/Personification). Then they gave the most Responsible Gods or Exiled the most Scarey ones as Keepers of the Underworld when they needed a place for human souls to go.

Fair enough but at what point did Lucifer and Denarians rebel. Seems to me once Humans were created and given Free Will. Lucifer didn't like the new adopted step children, or wanted Free Will. Denarians similar.


--- Quote from: Yuillegan on January 06, 2022, 06:01:04 AM ---Demonreach wasn't made "outside" of time, just across multiple times (and likely multiple dimensions and universes). So he at most it as old as there were people...which isn't that old really.
--- End quote ---
'As old as there were people'. Is partially my argument all these beings needed people to anchor them somehow, maybe not give them life, but give them a framework of some kind. Time included.


--- Quote from: Yuillegan on January 06, 2022, 06:01:04 AM ---Ferrovax is an interesting one. Dragons supposedly were in charge of making sure things were happening the way they should, and did things like move rivers around (or start them). Serious things. Ferro could well be older than any form of life on the planet, potentially. Very hard to pinpoint. But Ethniu seemed to imply he was younger. And both were implied to be younger than Vadderung.
--- End quote ---

Dragons seem to have been created to enact direct physical change on the planet and reality. I can see why that offended or pissed off all of the Gods who were constrained or couldn't act as directly at the time.


--- Quote from: Yuillegan on January 06, 2022, 06:01:04 AM ---Drakul is almost certainly older than humanity, considering the Black Court have been around "since the dawn of humankind" or something like that. The being itself could be a lot older.
--- End quote ---
Conflicting sources about origin of Black Court. Drakul seemed to have preferred Nicodemus's method of a handful of effective subordinates. Dracula turned them into a Plague. My WAG is the Black Plague helped launched by the Denarians was a zombie apocalypse of Black Court. 666 also seems to indicate confluence of events time being one of them.


--- Quote from: Yuillegan on January 06, 2022, 06:01:04 AM ---I think Lord Raith is older than Nicodemus, but I could be wrong. I seem to remember reading something about that.

--- End quote ---
Etruscans were 900s BC till Roman Kingdom became Roman Republic in 500s BC, but a few things. 1. WOJ said 2000 not closer to 3000. 2. WOJ recently is he hasn't thought too much about the origins of the White Court so Etruscans as a measurement may not be feasible. 3. Possible White Court did it as a petty cats paw against everyone using Latin.

Conspiracy Theorist:

--- Quote from: Con on January 06, 2022, 01:39:47 AM ---I've always assumed Redcap was like the Eldest. I'm avoiding using the word mantle. More just title of the biggest and baddest. He's pretty proficient in firearms. I mean so is kincaid but it's rare among the golden oldies.


--- End quote ---

Yes but remember the Faerie Courts themselves are fairly recent innovations. They would have been populated by existing Fae beings, but also would have attracted newcomers. He may have started off something like Toot, but was reborn as the Redcap when DeSoulis impressed him as a familiar and this led him to become a totally different thing, the Redcap, the first of his kind.

WOJ has it that some powerful  Fae do indeed come into being like this. Toot’s growth may mean that this process is happening to him. Is Toots future as a full grown Fae brandishing a bloody pizza cutter as The Deep Pan?

We know through Ace that the Redcap can reproduce with mortals and the resultant changelings would themselves be Redcaps should they choose Fae, but we haven’t seen any and he is referred to as The Redcap, denoting he is singular. Poor parenting perhaps if Ace is an example, none survived. This might suggest a relatively recent singular origin.

Interestingly De Soulis is a perfect candidate for a past Winter Knight, suggesting a parallel with Harry and Toot.

fillmoreb:

--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on January 06, 2022, 10:26:37 AM ---We know through Ace that the Redcap can reproduce with mortals and the resultant changelings would themselves be Redcaps should they choose Fae, but we haven’t seen any and he is referred to as The Redcap, denoting he is singular. Poor parenting perhaps if Ace is an example, none survived. This might suggest a relatively recent singular origin.

--- End quote ---

Personally, I never thought of Redcap as a separate species of Fae.  I believe the Redcap is just a fairly high ranking Sidhe, and his changeling offspring would just become a standard Sidhe.  I view the whole Redcap thing as an affectation of his.  He dips his hat in blood to terrify people, and goes by the name Redcap.  I know this doesn't jive with the real world mythology of Redcaps, but I think Jim just took some poetic license on that.

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