The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Peace Talks interesting things and questions
KurtinStGeorge:
--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on January 07, 2022, 01:20:16 AM ---If there is a Denarian on the White Council it’s Ancient Mai, she is old even for a Wizard and doesn’t have the excuse of being in the NeverNever all the time.
Besides Harry’s staff gave off a whiff of sulphur when he used Hellfire, no indication of that with a Eb.
--- End quote ---
Good point. Also, in the physical world add enough sulfur to a fire and it will turn the flame a nice bright electric blue color. This is another indication that both the smell and color of hellfire have more to do with what it represents than it's physical qualities.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Mira on January 06, 2022, 12:43:47 PM ---I don't think that is totally true. In the past people did manage for a while at least to settle there, there are ruins. Now with the means of "bad vibs" for lack of a better word, after a while Alfred got rid of them, however they still were there and could have done mischief. The Denarians got on to the Island with no trouble and Namshiel certianly could have done lots of damage if he felt it was worth his while to do it. I wouldn't be shocked if he was perfectly aware that Alfred and the prison were there, it just didn't serve his purpose to mess with it at that time. Finally and most importantly at the beginning of Skin Game, Harry mentions that one of the things he had been learning that past year, is how to deploy the Island defenses, which if I remember correctly [I've only had one or two swallows of coffee] hadn't been deployed as they should have been for some time. That could have been the main reason why Maeve and Company had been able to drop in by air in the first place, alone, Alfred wasn't able to fully deploy the Island defenses.
Now that I've had my coffee and had time to wake up and look it up. ::) Page 6 Skin Game, bolding mine;
There you have it, without a Warden, the Island was vulnerable, or I should say some had some vulnerabilities.. Apparently Maeve and Company knew that, that is why they chose the time and the manner of their attack in Cold Days. While yes, in Cold Days Harry was the Warden, but because of his recovery time etc from injury, he hadn't been on the Island long enough to fully understand what the job entailed, or how to do his new job. Heck, until he came back to the Island in Cold Days with Bob, he didn't even know it was a maximum security prison. Maeve, would also have known that, that is why they attacked when they did.
--- End quote ---
Well, Alfred drove the inhabitants insane. Or rather, he didn't stop the evilness of all those beings imprisoned (described as psychic body heat) from affecting those mortals who tried settling there. I don't know if Alfred even mildly viewed them as a threat. I doubt he even considered them more than beings on the Island.
The Denarians did manage to get on the Island, all the Fallen and at least some of their hosts knowing what the Island really is. My interpretation is that Alfred also didn't view them as an immediate threat, and Nicodemus was cognizant enough to realise that there was no current Warden. But they also were careful enough to not provoke the Island either. Having mortal hosts gives those particular Fallen a great advantage, as Alfred reacts far more strongly to sprit beings than mortal ones. But if it were so easy for Namshiel to crack open the prison, why hasn't he already? Also, it is possible the Denarians don't want what's in the prison to get out either.
Don't worry, I used to be like that with coffee - I understand the feeling. Had to back off for health reasons, but when I do have it I miss drinking it quite as often.
Back to the topic, the quote you point out does show what I am talking about. Demonreach despite not having Harry activate defenses still activated a shield and held off a freaking Walker and an army of Outsiders and cultists. That's seriously strong. Nemesis was only as successful as it was because a lot of energy was being focussed elsewhere, and the Faeries clearly have some bond with earth spirits (although Mab also notes that Demonreach chose to not take them down either...so perhaps eventually he would have shut them down anyway).
Maeve knew because Nemesis knew, I suspect. Not for any other real reason. One wonders what the Outsiders have been doing these many years before there was a Warden, before Harry got strong? My guess is the Black Council are responsible for putting things in motion...but we shall see.
--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on January 06, 2022, 05:25:35 PM ---Mab calculated that if she held the Peace Talks on the summer solstice (her weakest day) it would draw out the Fomor and whoever was behind them. She may have suspected Ethnui as a major unaccounted for power if so Chicago was a logical place just in case someone like Ethnui turned up, because of Demonreach and Harry. The Fomor were very confident suggesting they thought they could easily win, and if it was Ethnui she would fall for the trap due to her emotional nature and overconfidence. Ethnui couldn’t help attacking at Mab’s big event.
Mab had arms caches in place for years in Chicago so she had be expecting trouble if she held an event there.
Basically she rigged the game, just like she usually does.
Ethnui may have been a worst case scenario, for Harry it was business as normal.
--- End quote ---
That's an interesting theory - but did she set the date of the Peace Talks? I am pretty sure it was the Fomor who called them.
I think Mab always knew she would have to fight someone, not just the Fomor, in Chicago. Prepare for every scenario rather than a specific one.
I don't think I agree that anything about Battle Ground was "business as normal" for Harry or anyone else. It was a sucker punch on behalf of the Fomor, that seems clear to me.
--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on January 06, 2022, 11:59:14 PM ---Nemesis knows the dark ley lines running from the island, and seeks to utilise that power. That much is apparent from Cold Days.
Mab would be aware also of the Knights connections with Chicago, again a further ally in an attack on that City, and that the Erl King’s domain leads into the Chicago FBI Building.
--- End quote ---
I suspect the FBI building isn't the only mortal world connection to the Erlking's domain. Any hunting domain would work I would imagine. That's why Harry picked it. Same for the bank vault leading to Hades' Underworld. It's not like Chicago is the only way into the Never never.
--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on January 07, 2022, 01:20:16 AM ---If there is a Denarian on the White Council it’s Ancient Mai, she is old even for a Wizard and doesn’t have the excuse of being in the NeverNever all the time.
Besides Harry’s staff gave off a whiff of sulphur when he used Hellfire, no indication of that with a Eb.
--- End quote ---
I think she is just at the edge of the range, rather than being mysteriously old. And we don't know she doesn't spend a lot of time in the Never never - in Summer Knight she is the one with the Faerie contacts after all. But I suspect she is simply old as that is what suited the character Jim made. That being said, she would be a good sucker punch.
You're right probably about the hellfire too, I think.
--- Quote from: K.L.O.E. on January 06, 2022, 11:32:44 PM ---Isn't her son a sun god? That qualifies as a being in my book.
My question about Eb more relates to would Demonreach be able to ID him as a Denarian after the fact? Does intellectus provide that sort of metaphysical memory? Alfred may also be able to ID the blackstaff as well if they can.
I'm not sure how much Nemesis knows about the island unless they possessed a Warden at some point in time. They may know what's stored there and have an idea of some of the defenses but really where else would they learn the details?
Really though I agree. The crux of the matter is where did the Bronze come from?
--- End quote ---
Sorry Kloe, I wasn't clear.
I meant not just any god - it's clear from the myth that it was specifically Ethniu's son that took out Balor.
Ah, I get that. Using the Intellectus as a detector. It would probably work for Denarians, but seemingly nothing but logic and intuition works for Nemesis - even Uriel can't always be sure.
Nemesis probably has it's own Intellectus as much as anything else. It's an immortal timeless being from beyond Creation. I don't think it seeks and learns in the same way beings from Inside do.
The bronze is the key. I suspect this will come up...eventually. Jim can leave threads for decades after all.
--- Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on January 07, 2022, 12:35:58 AM ---Question #1: I doubt that it is important who did it. Maybe we will find out when if Harry summons Ethniu to do something horrible to another monster that is a much larger threat, so that it makes the possibility of losing control of Ethniu worth the risk.
Question #2: I seriously doubt that Ebenezer is a denarian. It's a good hypothesis because it fits the facts, but as Yuillegan points out, it doesn't make a great deal of sense for Ebenezer to have made such a deal. So, I have to ask myself if there another hypothesis that fits the facts, and I think there is.
Why is hellfire red? (I feel like Sir Bedevere in Monty Python and the Holly Grail.) It's not because it uses fire magic or that it comes from some kind of hellish volcano filled with red lava. It's symbolic of the red hot anger of the Fallen ones. Yuelligan tells us that Ebenezer is barely in control of his actions. In fact, Eb will lose control and would have killed Harry if Harry had actually been on the dock. Ebenezer is about to use black magic because he's incredibly angry and believes that he is right and is doing the right thing.
Therefore, my hypothesis is all black magic; or at least all black magic motivated by anger, is red or of a reddish color. Whereas, Harry's normal fire magic; or any regular fire magic used by any other wizard who uses it, is red because the fire they call forth is using oxygen for it's fuel.
--- End quote ---
Isn't it important who armed Ethniu? It's almost certainly one of (if not THE) being behind everything, all the Black Council stuff. It's basically the big bad (or one of them), at least to me. I don't know that Ethniu needs to be summoned to be questioned. Harry can question beings in their cells after all.
To your second rebuttal, I think you're probably right about Eb not being a Denarian. I just thought the imagery that Jim used was rather similar. Not so sure about the red being dark magic, but I see where you are coming from. The main thing to me is, Eb has a staff that protects him from black magic (and unless I am much mistaken) why didn't he use that if he was going to do black magic? I thought he was just using his regular staff. I suspect the red just means he was angry, and using power and heat. Harry's runes flare all the time after all.
--- Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on January 07, 2022, 02:52:17 AM ---Good point. Also, in the physical world add enough sulfur to a fire and it will turn the flame a nice bright electric blue color. This is another indication that both the smell and color of hellfire have more to do with what it represents than it's physical qualities.
--- End quote ---
I agree, although the color thing is probably more to do with Jim than anything realistic. It isn't like Harry's color went blue when he had Lasciel and used Hellfire.
vincentric:
Demonreach did not activate a shield or hold off the Walker in CD.
Maeve and Lily put up the circle before they started their assault on Alfred. Fix tells Harry this.
The Walker was able to come to the shores of Demonreach with no trouble. The issue was the barges with the magical ritual couldn't be allowed to reach the shore. Harry used the Wild Hunt, his power and still needed a last minute save from the his allies to stop thatfrom happening. Once the barges were down and Harry got his shot in on the Walker, that part of the battle was over.
I don't doubt that Demonreach could have stopped the uninvited Walker(otherwise the world would have been ended ages ago). And as Harry said in SG, now that he knows the basics, that sort of assault is a threat.
Mira:
--- Quote from: vincentric on January 07, 2022, 02:24:58 PM ---Demonreach did not activate a shield or hold off the Walker in CD.
Maeve and Lily put up the circle before they started their assault on Alfred. Fix tells Harry this.
The Walker was able to come to the shores of Demonreach with no trouble. The issue was the barges with the magical ritual couldn't be allowed to reach the shore. Harry used the Wild Hunt, his power and still needed a last minute save from the his allies to stop thatfrom happening. Once the barges were down and Harry got his shot in on the Walker, that part of the battle was over.
I don't doubt that Demonreach could have stopped the uninvited Walker(otherwise the world would have been ended ages ago). And as Harry said in SG, now that he knows the basics, that sort of assault is a threat.
--- End quote ---
No, he says now that there is a Warden in charge of defenses again, that kind of assault is not a threat. page 6 Skin Game
--- Quote ---I'd spent the last year acquainting myself with the island's secrets, with the defenses that I hadn't even known existed---defenses that could be activated only by the Warden. If the Walker tried that play again, I could shut him down single-handed. Even Mab, as powerful as she was, would be well-advised to be cautious if she decided to start trouble on Demonreach's soil.
--- End quote ---
To be totally secure, the Island needs a Warden, Alfred cannot do it all on his own. That is what Harry found out in that year on the Island when he learned the ins and outs of it's defenses. It could be that it was mere luck that it hadn't been successfully invaded before.. Or that might be why the fact that it had gone Wardenless for so long was kept a secret. Because with no Warden the defenses were vulnerable.
--- Quote ---Well, Alfred drove the inhabitants insane. Or rather, he didn't stop the evilness of all those beings imprisoned (described as psychic body heat) from affecting those mortals who tried settling there. I don't know if Alfred even mildly viewed them as a threat. I doubt he even considered them more than beings on the Island.
--- End quote ---
The point Harry was making on page six of Skin Game is he learned that the Island had defenses that only he as the Warden could activate or order Alfred to activate. Before he took full charge as Warden, the Island was vulnerable to the type of attack we saw in Cold Days. Now that he is the Warden in full charge, that cannot happen. That is why at the end of Battle Ground, Nemesis tried to trick him though Justine to get inside, only with the Warden's permission can anyone get inside as long as the defenses are fully up.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: vincentric on January 07, 2022, 02:24:58 PM ---Demonreach did not activate a shield or hold off the Walker in CD.
Maeve and Lily put up the circle before they started their assault on Alfred. Fix tells Harry this.
The Walker was able to come to the shores of Demonreach with no trouble. The issue was the barges with the magical ritual couldn't be allowed to reach the shore. Harry used the Wild Hunt, his power and still needed a last minute save from the his allies to stop thatfrom happening. Once the barges were down and Harry got his shot in on the Walker, that part of the battle was over.
I don't doubt that Demonreach could have stopped the uninvited Walker(otherwise the world would have been ended ages ago). And as Harry said in SG, now that he knows the basics, that sort of assault is a threat.
--- End quote ---
Yes, yes it did.
--- Quote ---The first thing I saw was the curtain wall around the island’s shoreline. It was nothing but a flicker of opalescent light, like a dense aurora borealis, stretching from the water’s edge up into the October sky. It cast an eerie glow over the trees of the island, steeping them in menacing black shadow, and its reflection in the waters of the lake was three or four times bigger and more colorful than it should have been.
As the Hunt rushed closer, I could make out other details, too. There was a small fleet of boats surrounding the island—it looked like something out of WWII’s Pacific theater. Some of the boats were modest recreational models, several at least the size of the Water Beetle , and three looked like tugboat-barge units, the kind that could ferry twenty loaded train cars around the lake.
I could see motion in the waters around the shore. Things were swarming up out of the lake, hideous and fascinating—hundreds of them. They smashed into Demonreach’s curtain wall. Light pulsed in liquid concentric circles where they touched it, and shrieks of alien agony stretched the air toward a breaking point. The waters within twenty feet of the shore bubbled and thrashed in a demonic frenzy.
I felt a pulse of power stir in the air, and a bolt of sickly green energy lashed across the waters and slammed into the curtain wall. The entire wall dimmed for a second, but then resurged as the island resisted the attack. I tracked the bolt back to the barge and saw a figure in a weird, writhing cloak standing on the deck, facing the island—Sharkface.
--- End quote ---
I have bolded the important lines.
So what would you call that? Seems like a shield to me. And Harry didn't activate any defenses. The Island did it all on it's own. Passive defences, that I imagine are always on even at minimum settings. It actually held off not just Before, but his whole army. Harry even says as much in Skin Game I believe. Although, eventually the barges would have got through. Pesky mortals and their ability to go through spirit-stopping shields.
Some trouble, Before didn't even touch the shore. Harry had to go into the water to "kill" him.
--- Quote ---The water near me stirred and then a Sharkface rose up out of it as if on an elevator, slow, his mouth tilted up into a small smile. He stood there on the water perhaps five feet away from me. His eyeless face looked smug.
--- End quote ---
And that is where he stays until Harry goes for him.
I don't know what your getting at about Lily and Maeve putting the circle up first. Regardless, they airdropped in.
--- Quote from: Mira on January 07, 2022, 03:17:34 PM ---No, he says now that there is a Warden in charge of defenses again, that kind of assault is not a threat. page 6 Skin Game
To be totally secure, the Island needs a Warden, Alfred cannot do it all on his own. That is what Harry found out in that year on the Island when he learned the ins and outs of it's defenses. It could be that it was mere luck that it hadn't been successfully invaded before.. Or that might be why the fact that it had gone Wardenless for so long was kept a secret. Because with no Warden the defenses were vulnerable.
The point Harry was making on page six of Skin Game is he learned that the Island had defenses that only he as the Warden could activate or order Alfred to activate. Before he took full charge as Warden, the Island was vulnerable to the type of attack we saw in Cold Days. Now that he is the Warden in full charge, that cannot happen. That is why at the end of Battle Ground, Nemesis tried to trick him though Justine to get inside, only with the Warden's permission can anyone get inside as long as the defenses are fully up.
--- End quote ---
I think Vincentric misspoke, I think he meant to say "isn't a threat" rather than "is a threat".
I agree, the Island was designed to have a Warden. Obviously the Merlin accounted for the possibility of their being periods of time with no Warden physically present, otherwise the Warden would have to be their all the time. So it clearly works to some degree without it. And Harry has left defenses "on" a certain setting before leaving the Island, just like when he tells Demonreach to go maximum defenses after entombing Thomas before he goes out to fight the Fomor in Battle Ground.
But I agree that the Island would be at it's most defendable when the Warden is physically present on the Island and knows the ins-and-outs.
I suspect it isn't just luck at that level. I suspect higher forces were doing their best to ensure the Island didn't get assaulted before it was a bit more defendable. That being said, I suspect the opposition forces were doing their level best and that's why the attacks eventually got through.
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