The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Harry should have trusted Ramirez
Mira:
--- Quote ---"By the time Harry had got there no one had been there [Demonreach] in a good long while because basically y'know among the people who are in the know on the Council it would be suicide to go try and do that"
"If one of the Senior Council guys got it all the other Senior Council people would be like 'yep, he's the bad guy - definitely corrupted and serving evil' and Dresden walked into it and it was just such a stupid move they all kinda looked at him at went '...I think he was being dumb' 'do you think he was being dumb?' 'Yeah! It looks dumb - it looks like he was just being stupid...but my god we do need the firepower' "
--- End quote ---
Thank you for writing that out for me, exact quote might be a bit more helpful, not sure. If you pair that with what Eb says in his journal, [also WOJ, he wrote it]
--- Quote ---. . .seems clear that he had no idea of the island's original purpose.
I sometimes can't help but think that there is such a thing as fate--or at least a
higher power of some sort attempting to arrange events in our favor despite everything
we, in our ignorance, do to thwart it. The Merlin has demanded that we put the boy under surveillance at once.I think he is a damn fool.
--- End quote ---
The WOJ underscores the "ignorance" that Eb mentions of the Council and why Eb is so relieved that there is a Warden at last of the Island, even if it is Harry stumbling on to it.
--- Quote ---Curiously, Harry names it in Turn Coat LONG before he knew the true purpose of the Island. Yet, as the Gatekeeper says the name is quite apt. One feels that was a bit of the Island's Intellectus merging with Harry. It was a stroke of insight that helped Harry with the name. Another thing, is naming the Island a part of claiming it? In which case each Warden either names it the same thing or they each gave it a name themselves, and so the Island has dozens of names potentially.
--- End quote ---
In Small Favor, Harry has the feeling that he has walked on the steps of the Island before, though he has never been on the Island. Supposedly this is a wizard thing awaking in him given his age according to Luccio. But what if it isn't?
SerScot:
--- Quote from: Basil on December 27, 2021, 08:36:26 PM ---
Harry also is The Warden, a position most recently held by ... Kemmler.
--- End quote ---
Hold on there Tex. Where did we learn Kemmler is the former Warden of Demonreach?
BrainFireBob:
--- Quote from: SerScot on January 21, 2022, 01:52:17 AM ---Hold on there Tex. Where did we learn Kemmler is the former Warden of Demonreach?
--- End quote ---
A WoJ last year.
He wasn't the last-there were two in between.
Kemmler was trying to get back to the island for much of the 19th century
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Mira on January 11, 2022, 12:46:41 PM ---Thank you for writing that out for me, exact quote might be a bit more helpful, not sure. If you pair that with what Eb says in his journal, [also WOJ, he wrote it]
The WOJ underscores the "ignorance" that Eb mentions of the Council and why Eb is so relieved that there is a Warden at last of the Island, even if it is Harry stumbling on to it.
In Small Favor, Harry has the feeling that he has walked on the steps of the Island before, though he has never been on the Island. Supposedly this is a wizard thing awaking in him given his age according to Luccio. But what if it isn't?
--- End quote ---
Sorry if that wasn't clear - I was quoting Jim verbatim from the interview.
My reading of that passage in Eb's diary is a bit different to yours. I read it as Ebenezar generalising about how fate or God seems to be on the White Council's side, despite the fact that the White Council keeps making mistakes that make it harder for God/fate to help them (due to their ignorance of the ineffable plan of God/fate). I don't think he is being specific about the White Council being ignorant of Demonreach - otherwise why would the Merlin react so strongly (along with the rest of the Senior Council)?
Yes, I know your theory about Harry and OG Merlin. Certainly possible. But I don't think that answers how Harry knew to name Demonreach. It might explain the mechanism possibly, if for example Harry was actually connecting through time to the original naming of Demonreach (whenever that might be, past or future, involving the original Merlin). But to me that seems more complicated than necessary, and Jim is a reasonably pragmatic writer. I think it might just be Demonreach itself giving Harry some insight into what it is and it's purpose (i.e. just like when he learns the true name of a Walker like Before in Cold Days or Behind in the flashback in Ghost Story, or even Mab in Changes...and then it fades away and he gets to hold onto a few important crumbs). Admittedly, Jim wrote the scene quite differently from those others I mentioned so I could well be wrong. But it's hard to see how Harry might get such an accurate name without knowing the main truths about the Island. Normally when Harry names things he gives them silly names (i.e. Frogs for Fomor, Turtlenecks for Servitors, Nickleheads for Denarians etc). But he didn't this time. I suppose you could argue he does later by calling the avatar spirit of Demonreach "Alfred" like Batman's butler...but that's a bit different to what happened when he first encounters Alfred and claims the Island as his sanctum.
--- Quote from: BrainFireBob on January 21, 2022, 02:24:50 AM ---A WoJ last year.
He wasn't the last-there were two in between.
Kemmler was trying to get back to the island for much of the 19th century
--- End quote ---
In point of fact, the very link Mira and I were discussing.
--- Quote ---Barbarra Books Q&A https://www.crowdcast.io/e/jim-butcher and go to 24:37 and he starts to discuss who the previous Wardens were and how long
--- End quote ---
Mira:
--- Quote ---My reading of that passage in Eb's diary is a bit different to yours. I read it as Ebenezar generalising about how fate or God seems to be on the White Council's side, despite the fact that the White Council keeps making mistakes that make it harder for God/fate to help them (due to their ignorance of the ineffable plan of God/fate). I don't think he is being specific about the White Council being ignorant of Demonreach - otherwise why would the Merlin react so strongly (along with the rest of the Senior Council)?
--- End quote ---
It is just a personal opinion, but I don't think Eb would make a "general" statement opinion in a personal journal. A private journal is meant to be just that, in other words, what his real personal opinion is, not meant for public access. So what does he say?
--- Quote ---. . .seems clear that he had no idea of the island's original purpose.
I sometimes can't help but think that there is such a thing as fate--or at least a
higher power of some sort attempting to arrange events in our favor despite everything
we, in our ignorance, do to thwart it.
--- End quote ---
If you look at the first line of that paragraph, Eb is implying and it is true, that Harry stumbled into becoming Warden of the island. Harry no clue that the job even existed or that the prison existed, he was just desperate to come up with a way to defend Morgan from unjust treatment from the Senior Council and it was the only way his power could match theirs.
Then he talks about "fate" and guidance from a "higher power," in spite of some of the moves of the Council to thwart out of ignorance. So just what is the Council thwarting? Returning to the subject of the entry in the journal, the installation of a Warden for the island. Clearly because without a proper Warden as we see later in Cold Days and confirmed by Harry in the first chapter of Skin Game, the island is vulnerable. So you can say it was mere luck that Harry did what he did and became unwittingly Warden at a critical time.. Or fate and guidance that it was Harry who did this and not someone more corruptible for lack of a better word who got the job at this critical time .
Which gets us to the "ignorance" part of that statement. We know the Council isn't stupid, but at the same time they fear the island having a proper Warden so much that they'd rather risk it being successfully attacked than have one. Why? For starters if the Council at this point knew half of the "weapons" Harry has at his disposal they'd freak out more than they already have. But is that fear real? Consider what Mab told Harry in Battle Ground, that the prisoners were now his to control. If he wanted to use Ethniu to attack someone, he could make her do it. Now that would be very bad for the Council. But is she right? Mab can be mistaken, there must be some unwritten fail safes built in to prevent that. Why do I say that? If Kemmler was half as bad as they say he was, why didn't he do that very thing while he was Warden? What stopped him? Did Alfred or something else boot him off the island? In another thread someone said that Jim said he tried to get back to the island, but was prevented.. By the Council or the island itself? That is an important question. So by ignorance, I think Eb meant that the Council fears anyone who might control the prison because they are indeed ignorant of the fail safes that prevent the misuse of the inmates of the island's prison.
Then he says;
--- Quote --- The Merlin has demanded that we put the boy under surveillance at once.I think he is a damn fool.
--- End quote ---
Eb knows Harry a lot better than the Merlin does, he also loves him, he is his grandson. Eb doesn't think that Harry will turn into a monster just because he is now Warden of the island. Then he says he trusts Harry, but then adds as an aside that he also trusted Margaret, which is an admission that he sometimes makes mistakes in judgement.
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