The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Harry should have trusted Ramirez
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Mira on January 05, 2022, 12:24:18 PM --- Yet the Merlin is willing to allow the Blackstaff to remain in the hands of one wizard. Now I realize that perhaps Eb couldn't do as much damage as all the monsters on the Island being turned loose, but still with that staff he could do a lot of damage. The point is, how does the Merlin know the island is secure enough without a Warden? Just because no one has been successful in getting in during the last hundred years doesn't mean that it is. It only speaks of a lack of imagination..
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I don't think the Merlin has a lot of choice about the Blackstaff. I think if he could give it to another he would have by now. That could be because Ebenezar is too strong or it would be too overt or whatever, but I suspect it might be to do with the magic of the Blackstaff itself. I suspect it can only be given, or picked up, not stolen. Which means, like it or not, the Merlin must accept it.
I mean, who says he the Merlin hasn't spent a lot of time making sure most people don't get near it? We don't know what measures he has undertaken. Harry took the Island in a period when the White Council was particularly distracted and very low on resources. Almost the perfect time to grab the Island. No Wardens available to defend it or monitor it, or any other wizards for that matter. The White Council was reeling from the savage assault by the Red Court.
I don't think it's so much a matter of the Merlin thinking it's secure without a Warden, although as I say the Island has plenty of defences, and very few wizards who would be brave/stupid/insane enough to actually go and find the Island and try and claim it, would be around. Cowl could have claimed it, or Justin. And perhaps they did at different times (as we know there were at least two people between Kemmler and Harry). But why not Corpsetaker or Grevane? Both are mad and powerful enough? My guess is the Island wouldn't like them much, but also the White Council might have monitoring (most years) for just such a thing.
And as I said earlier, anyone who tries to claim it is considered Voldemort, according to Jim. That's just the facts we have to work with. It's just a matter of human nature then. If you go and do x, we will kill you. So all those wizards on the White Council who might have thought about it would know better than to try, as everyone would go for them.
You want a good example, just look at what Harry has done to be kicked off the White Council. If he were Kemmler, he could have unleashed an army of dark monsters. He could have sent dark gods to wipe out his foes etc. Harry has been accused of being basically the new Dark Lord and yet really hasn't made a bid for control. That being said, the White Council is terrified at how much personal power he has and how much protection, and how much he has achieved. No wonder they fear him.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I don't think the Merlin has a lot of choice about the Blackstaff. I think if he could give it to another he would have by now. That could be because Ebenezar is too strong or it would be too overt or whatever, but I suspect it might be to do with the magic of the Blackstaff itself. I suspect it can only be given, or picked up, not stolen. Which means, like it or not, the Merlin must accept it.
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Possible, but I don't think it is that simple, if it were, you'd think that Mother Winter would have retrieved her walking stick a long time ago.
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And as I said earlier, anyone who tries to claim it is considered Voldemort, according to Jim. That's just the facts we have to work with. It's just a matter of human nature then. If you go and do x, we will kill you. So all those wizards on the White Council who might have thought about it would know better than to try, as everyone would go for them.
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I never got past "Harry Potter and the Blood Prince," for a number of reasons.. Anywho, Voldemort is also "He, who must not be named" So Jim may have meant merely that the Council do not want the name of the Warden to get out. If everyone knew who the Warden was, he/she'd be a target for someone who wanted to gain access. That is my theory, I don't know WOJ as to why he said that.
But the Council has never openly said, "if you go to the Island to become Warden we will kill you." On the contrary it was merely removed from the map, and it is the Island, "that must not be named" rather than it's Warden.
--- Quote ---You want a good example, just look at what Harry has done to be kicked off the White Council. If he were Kemmler, he could have unleashed an army of dark monsters. He could have sent dark gods to wipe out his foes etc. Harry has been accused of being basically the new Dark Lord and yet really hasn't made a bid for control. That being said, the White Council is terrified at how much personal power he has and how much protection, and how much he has achieved. No wonder they fear him.
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But is he really considered the new Dark Lord though? Or merely someone who in a very short time has acquired a lot of power that is mostly out of their jurisdiction, i.e. Winter Knight and Warden of the Island, oh yeah, starborn, and they cannot control him... The last is what scares them, they fear what they cannot control, if they cannot control him/her, ergo he or she will go warlock on
steroids... The starborn bit is interesting though, my theory is originally the Senior Council wanted a starborn created, but one of their own that they could control.. With Harry they were hoisted by their own petard.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Mira on January 06, 2022, 01:07:09 PM ---Possible, but I don't think it is that simple, if it were, you'd think that Mother Winter would have retrieved her walking stick a long time ago.
I never got past "Harry Potter and the Blood Prince," for a number of reasons.. Anywho, Voldemort is also "He, who must not be named" So Jim may have meant merely that the Council do not want the name of the Warden to get out. If everyone knew who the Warden was, he/she'd be a target for someone who wanted to gain access. That is my theory, I don't know WOJ as to why he said that.
But the Council has never openly said, "if you go to the Island to become Warden we will kill you." On the contrary it was merely removed from the map, and it is the Island, "that must not be named" rather than it's Warden.
But is he really considered the new Dark Lord though? Or merely someone who in a very short time has acquired a lot of power that is mostly out of their jurisdiction, i.e. Winter Knight and Warden of the Island, oh yeah, starborn, and they cannot control him... The last is what scares them, they fear what they cannot control, if they cannot control him/her, ergo he or she will go warlock on
steroids... The starborn bit is interesting though, my theory is originally the Senior Council wanted a starborn created, but one of their own that they could control.. With Harry they were hoisted by their own petard.
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I am not sure I follow about Mother Winter. If the staff can only be given, not taken for example - it's harder for her to get it back as she has to get someone to willingly hand it over. We don't really know how it works. But I suspect the other reason she doesn't get it is because no one would be stupid enough to walk up to her with it, and because she doesn't seem to leave her cottage now (or only very rarely at any rate) I suspect it's reasonably easy to avoid that sort of confrontation.
Jim might have meant they were guarding the name, but I will give you the quote and you'll see what he was getting at. I was wrong about what video, it's from the Barbarra Books Q&A https://www.crowdcast.io/e/jim-butche and go to 24:37 and he starts to discuss who the previous Wardens were and how long, and then at 26:35 or so he outlines why no one has taken the position for a while. He didn't call them the next Voldemort in this interview, that was just my shorthand.
The point is though, that the Council didn't feel they needed to say they would kill whoever did it because a) they didn't think anyone would be crazy/suicidal enough to do it and b) because they thought anyone who would do it would be someone very, very bad. And then Harry stumbled in and made them all wonder again for the umpteenth time if he really is evil or if he's just an idiot.
I suspect Demonreach has another name (if not several). That's not uncommon, particularly for places and especially in this series. The Native American people would call it something different to Harry, the Council likely know an older name (perhaps Merlin's name for it) but there are many languages as well (not just human either).
I really don't know if Harry is considered the new Dark Lord, we will have to read the next book to really know that. But I suspect it was a part of the argument to kick him off the Council. As far as the Council are concerned, anyone who gathers a lot of power in a short amount of time out of their jurisdiction IS a threat, and therefore it's semantics whether they are really evil or not (to the Council anyway). They don't like opposition. Cowl hints at this being part of the reason the Black Council exists. The White Council, like any tyrant, is often largely responsible for creating their own worst enemy and arming them with the exact weapons required to bring them down. Tyrants can't help it really.
Whether they are actually concerned (although some surely are) that he will go Warlock, or that he is Black Council doesn't matter too much (with the exception that it might convince the more lenient allies of Harry like LtW and Ebenezar to side against him). They see him as a large, uncontrollable opposition with too much power and influence.
This gets to the heart of the issue with the White Council, and any governing body. The right of the individual versus the right of the majority. The White Council's authority (like any powerful governing body) derives from it's ability to enforce it's will onto others and still maintain control over their domain. They then must claim legitimacy either through divine right, or something similar, but often it's really just might. Why should the Council be allowed to kill Harry, or to control Wizards, or stop them doing time magic or whatever? Ultimately, the Council is a collection of individuals backed by a large(ish) and powerful group of people that have decided that it's better to have a governing body than let chaos ensue with no one in charge. Doesn't mean they are legitimate. But if most people have decided something, normally that's the way it goes. A single person's right don't necessarily count for more than everyone else's. But not necessarily less either. It's a huge, complex philosophical issue humans have been trying to solve since day one. We are more sophisticated in some ways today but it always essentially boils down to who has the power. And it likely always will, unless humanity develops into a far more sophisticated society beyond our differences stops trying to kill one another etc. I don't think we will get that far, but look how far we've come, so who knows?
I think you're probably right about the star born thing. Harry didn't work out the way they hoped...but then again he isn't a complete failure either. The Merlin is famously cunning, and Jim has said he often is far less direct than Harry suspects. A career manipulator and politician. Harry might be serving the Merlin's aims despite not actually intending to. The implication is that he meant Harry to destroy the Red Court, despite appearing to try and hamper Harry.
It just occurred to me that both Maggie and Ebenezar before her could both have been Warden's at one time or another. Other candidates are Simon and Justin, and potentially Rashid and someone (again, I would think Maggie). Maggie and Justin just seem like the most likely to have preceded Harry given what they both were like and got up to.
Mira:
Sadly for some reason the link you gave me wouldn't work. However a couple of things remain, for some reason the Council is so afraid of a Warden being in charge of the Island that they are willing to let the Island be vulnerable to attack, which it was in Cold Days. Then in Skin Game Harry says because there is now a Warden in charge, all defenses are engaged and the Outsiders couldn't pull that again.
It was my understanding that it was Harry that came up with the name "Demonreach" for the Island. If the Council is guarding the name, one has to wonder what that name is? However we also know that names have power in the Dresdenverse.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Mira on January 08, 2022, 01:47:07 PM ---
Sadly for some reason the link you gave me wouldn't work. However a couple of things remain, for some reason the Council is so afraid of a Warden being in charge of the Island that they are willing to let the Island be vulnerable to attack, which it was in Cold Days. Then in Skin Game Harry says because there is now a Warden in charge, all defenses are engaged and the Outsiders couldn't pull that again.
It was my understanding that it was Harry that came up with the name "Demonreach" for the Island. If the Council is guarding the name, one has to wonder what that name is? However we also know that names have power in the Dresdenverse.
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Damn, yeah it's a bit of an annoying link. Even when it works you have to enter your email to watch it etc. I could type out the section if you like?
Basically he says:
"By the time Harry had got there no one had been there [Demonreach] in a good long while because basically y'know among the people who are in the know on the Council it would be suicide to go try and do that"
"If one of the Senior Council guys got it all the other Senior Council people would be like 'yep, he's the bad guy - definitely corrupted and serving evil' and Dresden walked into it and it was just such a stupid move they all kinda looked at him at went '...I think he was being dumb' 'do you think he was being dumb?' 'Yeah! It looks dumb - it looks like he was just being stupid...but my god we do need the firepower' "
I hope that sort of clears things up. I think they didn't think they either didn't think the Island was in such danger as to require the Warden OR they assumed it was worse to actually allow any wizard to come into such power/too afraid if they took it themselves they would be killed by the others.
Harry did come up with the name but one wonders if that's a name that exists in Demonreach's mind itself or just Harry being Harry. Harry seems to get some sort of magical inspiration in the moment so who knows?
Curiously, Harry names it in Turn Coat LONG before he knew the true purpose of the Island. Yet, as the Gatekeeper says the name is quite apt. One feels that was a bit of the Island's Intellectus merging with Harry. It was a stroke of insight that helped Harry with the name. Another thing, is naming the Island a part of claiming it? In which case each Warden either names it the same thing or they each gave it a name themselves, and so the Island has dozens of names potentially.
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