The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Harry should have trusted Ramirez
Mira:
--- Quote from: vincentric on December 04, 2021, 12:04:56 AM ---Go back and reread that chapter. Murphy was not present when Ramirez and the team met Harry. She and Ramirez share no scenes in PT or BG. The closest the two come is when Murphy picks up Thomas, Lara and Freydis outside while Ethniu and Corb are entering the castle.
--- End quote ---
Where is she then? Did Harry leave her at the estate? He took her with him, I believe. Either way a gentleman doesn't tell... It doesn't change anything, any trust that Harry may had for Carlos was broken the minute he put that tracker on Harry's arm.
TrueMonk:
Regarding telling or not. In most cases I think the most natural answer would be: well I have a girlfriend, so if it not with her I am in trouble. But I also live in Denmark and I get the impression that there is a pretty big difference between Denmark and the US in this regard. But here I think Carlos could have handled it a lot better and if he had it would not have resulted in that sort of reaction from Harry.
Mira:
--- Quote from: TrueMonk on December 04, 2021, 07:12:27 PM ---Regarding telling or not. In most cases I think the most natural answer would be: well I have a girlfriend, so if it not with her I am in trouble. But I also live in Denmark and I get the impression that there is a pretty big difference between Denmark and the US in this regard. But here I think Carlos could have handled it a lot better and if he had it would not have resulted in that sort of reaction from Harry.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, even for those of us of Danish heritage, all my grandparents came here from the same town in Denmark. Now granted when I knew them they were elderly, but they had a much more conservative attitude.
But here is a quote from Peace Talks that sums up Harry's reaction and to me justifies it.
--- Quote ---"Of the two of us here," I said, "which of us has definitely wronged the other? You suspect that I might have done something wrong. You've definitelywronged me, trying to find out. And you did it first."
--- End quote ---
Which all goes back to Carlos putting the tracking device on Harry to begin with, someone was suspecting that Harry might be doing something wrong way before the assassination attempt. No warning that the White Council wanted his ass, nothing, why should Harry trust him?
Now Chandler did try to warn Harry..
--- Quote ---"We have an interest in learning as much as possible."
The way he said we was something new. He wasn't using the word as an inclusive one,like we are all friends. He was using it as an exclusive term. We, all of us,not you.
He was referring to me as someone outside of the White Council. His bright blue eyes were direct, almost pleading as he said it, willing me to get the message. I saw recognition flicker in them as he saw me process what he was actually saying: Be advised, Harry. The White Council now considers you a threat.
Didn't bode too well for that vote.
--- End quote ---
This says to me that the decision had already been made before Carlos put that tracking device on Harry. Someone on the Council wanted Harry out, and they were looking for an excuse.. This is what Eb was driving at when he showed up a little later, but Eb was wrong, I doubt that any amount of lobbying on Harry's part would have saved his ass. When Carlos was asking Harry to trust him and to talk, what he really was doing was fishing for enough rope to hang Harry with.. It meshes nicely with their last conversation in Battle Ground when he breaks the news that Harry was expelled from the Council on trumped up charges.
vincentric:
--- Quote from: Mira on December 04, 2021, 11:48:43 AM ---Where is she then? Did Harry leave her at the estate? He took her with him, I believe. Either way a gentleman doesn't tell... It doesn't change anything, any trust that Harry may had for Carlos was broken the minute he put that tracker on Harry's arm.
--- End quote ---
The meeting with Lara that Ramirez and crew showed up after is Harry's first visit and he went to that one alone.
He had Murphy with him the second time when they laid out the plan for Thomas' rescue.
And yes, Harry was correct to be angry at Ramirez. Placing that tracker was part of Ramirez's fading trust in Harry.
Neither Ramirez nor Harry cover themselves in diplomatic glory in PT. The time to tell Harry about the Council vote was when he met him on the beach with Thomas. Harry had no obligations at the time and might have agreed to go with him. But instead he drafts Harry into the White Council security team while placing that tracker.
Harry could have not lost his temper and just told them he did not have sex with anyone at Wraith manor, noyfb who I did have it with.
Given what Ramirez has seen is this. He comes to town to meet Harry Dresden, the Winter Knight, and sees him going on a morning jog with a vampire. He tells Harry about the Peace Talks and puts the tracker on him. He then tracks him to Wraith manor and confronts him after he leaves. They argue and both leave unsatisfied with what the other tells them.
And the kicker for Carlos is this: Harry threatens him with Molly. Carlos takes it wrong because they are both laboring under a misconception. Carlos thinks Harry knows all about how he was injured so badly by Molly. Harry has no idea that that happened(this occurs while Harry is incommunicado on Demonreach after CD) and Molly can't explain it to him because the Winter lady mantle(and probably personal shame) stops her.
So Carlos sees is friend falling in with the two groups that have injured him bad enough to hospitalize him. He's been ordered to monitor Harry by the organization he trusts and has dedicated his life to. It sets up an awkward situation and when he clumsily tries to talk to Harry in an inappropriate time and place, Harry reacts poorly and pushes Carlo's buttons with out knowing and Carlos unknowingly places Harry at the edge of three conflicting obligations.
Harry is justified and Carlos is in the wrong but I can see how they got there and why each feels the way they do at the end.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Given what Ramirez has seen is this. He comes to town to meet Harry Dresden, the Winter Knight, and sees him going on a morning jog with a vampire. He tells Harry about the Peace Talks and puts the tracker on him. He then tracks him to Wraith manor and confronts him after he leaves. They argue and both leave unsatisfied with what the other tells them.
--- End quote ---
But that is the whole point! He secretly puts a tracker under somebody's orders without warning his friend. That is a knife to the back! And I repeat, the White Court are part of the Accords like the White Council, they are supposed to be allies. Carlos also knows Thomas, he isn't just some vampire to him, he even says he can stick around while he talks to Harry about being part of security for the up and coming talks.
--- Quote ---You suspect that I might have done something wrong. You've definitely wronged me, trying to find out.
--- End quote ---
Carlos did this because the Council is looking to pin something on Harry, anything! To get him kicked off, Carlos could have warned him of that. He didn't he went along with it! He also knew he spent time at Murphy's place a little later, again before, then orders the sex scan and then accusing him of having sex with Lara..
Chandler's message
--- Quote ---We, all of us,not you.
He was referring to me as someone outside of the White Council. His bright blue eyes were direct, almost pleading as he said it, willing me to get the message. I saw recognition flicker in them as he saw me process what he was actually saying: Be advised, Harry. The White Council now considers you a threat.
--- End quote ---
Carlos is telling Harry to talk to him and trust him, but Carlos has already bought into the idea that Harry is a threat.. Nothing Harry could have said to him would have changed that, nothing..
Harry also says this in the end of the chapter debating whether or not he should have talked to Carlos because he says he is a good man and he thought at friend, but on the other hand, let is not forget that tracker!
--- Quote ---And even if I did, if Carlos really thought I'd been made into someone's sock puppet, he might talk with me and report everything I said back to the Council in an effort to discover what disinformation I'd been trying to give them.
--- End quote ---
He also goes on to say if Carlos knew he meant to free Thomas, it would make it all worse.
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