The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Harry should have trusted Ramirez
vincentric:
--- Quote from: Mira on December 03, 2021, 05:36:45 AM ---Context is everything, you are leaving out the bit about discovering that his so called trusted friend, Carlos had secretly placed a tracking device on him. That would piss him off just a bit and sort of toss diplomacy out the window. One extra point on that, since he was tracking Harry, Carlos would have known that Harry had spent some time at Murphy's house earlier that day.. Now in fairness, Carlos might not have guess that Harry and Murphy were an item, then again he may have... When you think of it, the sex scan stinks of "frame up." Suppose because he was tracking him, Carlos knew perfectly well who Harry had had sex with earlier that day, so he orders the sex scan... Of course it is positive, Carlos also knows Harry isn't going to tell him it was Murphy, when she is with in ear shot. Then Carlos further insinuates that Harry must of recently had sex with Lara. Which when you think of it doesn't make sense because why would Harry bring Murphy with him then ask her to feed the pigeons while he has sex and plots with Lara? Then Carlos asks Harry to talk to him, confess what he is plotting, because they are all friends? Really? Harry's reaction was perfectly normal, somewhere between WTF is this about? And pissed that his friend went along with doing this to him..
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While I agree with your argument on almost all points, you are conflating some scenes. Harry was alone when Ramirez and crew stopped him on the way back from Lara's. That was his first visit where he shared info Lara and she used her first favor to make Harry aid her in Thomas' escape. Murphy was with Harry on the second visit, where they had to elude the three tails. That was when they laid out the plan to Lara. Ramirez was not privy to that trip.
Cozarkian:
--- Quote from: Mira on December 03, 2021, 05:36:45 AM --- Harry's reaction was perfectly normal, somewhere between WTF is this about? And pissed that his friend went along with doing this to him..
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I agree, Harry's reaction was perfectly normal. But what constitutes "perfectly normal" human behavior is a range and different person's behavior typically fall within different areas of that range.
Some people, who prefer to avoid confrontation, would have told Ramirez they had sex with Murphy. That is perfectly normal human behavior, but it isn't Harry.
Some people, who are good diplomats and good at controlling their emotions, would have made an effort to push back against the bullying while inviting Carlos Ramirez to make a social call later, when he isn't acting as a warden, to discuss any personal concerns he might have about his friend. Again, that is perfectly normal human behavior, but it isn't Harry.
Harry is confrontational, he has trust issues, and issues with bullies. Thus, he pushed back as hard as he could without forcing a violent confrontation. While that is perfectly normal human behavior and the only reasonable expectation of what Harry would do, it probably wasn't the best approach.
Notably, Carlos Ramirez should know Harry well enough to understand that a confrontation like that would only push Harry away. If Carlos had truly been concerned with helping Harry, he would have approached alone. The fact that Carlos brought the team is pretty indicative that he had already decided that Harry was in bed with the White Court.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Some people, who prefer to avoid confrontation, would have told Ramirez they had sex with Murphy. That is perfectly normal human behavior, but it isn't Harry.
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Would you have admitted to having sex with the woman you had sex with was present? Gentlemen don't do that, last I checked Harry was old school gentleman. Why do the sex test to start with? Why would Carlos order that? Especially given the fact that Murphy had gone to the estate with Harry... Sorry but stinks of a framing..
--- Quote ---Some people, who are good diplomats and good at controlling their emotions, would have made an effort to push back against the bullying while inviting Carlos Ramirez to make a social call later, when he isn't acting as a warden, to discuss any personal concerns he might have about his friend. Again, that is perfectly normal human behavior, but it isn't Harry.
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Normally I'd agree, but there is also the view point that by secretly implanting that tracking device on Harry earlier, says that Harry was already suspected of something and Carlos went along with it.
How would you feel if a close friend you trust visited you wearing a wire with the intent to catch you in some criminal act? "Talk to me?" Really? About what? That has never been established, and no, it isn't about the assassination attempt, the tracking device was on him before that ever happened. Harry had nothing to tell him, but from the final conversation between Harry and Carlos at the end of Battle Ground, Carlos already had suspected him of all kinds of stuff back in chapter one of Peace Talks.. It smacks of "star chamber" tactics.
--- Quote ---Notably, Carlos Ramirez should know Harry well enough to understand that a confrontation like that would only push Harry away. If Carlos had truly been concerned with helping Harry, he would have approached alone. The fact that Carlos brought the team is pretty indicative that he had already decided that Harry was in bed with the White Court.
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If you will remember Carlos did approach Harry alone, in the first chapter of Peace Talks. It was all friendly chit chat, except Carlos secretly planted a tracking device on him. Had he already decided Harry was in bed with the White Court? Maybe but last time I checked the White Court under the Accords were allies of the White Council.. Still doesn't explain the tracking device.. Friends don't do that to their friends..
TrueMonk:
Just to elaborate on my post above. It would probably not have been very Harry to be diplomatic and calm, I just answered it in the spirit of what do I think the optimal course of action would have been.
Carlos started with the tracking device, but maybe they are equal when Harry uses his trust to make him a distraction and a fool in front of the accorded nations. I can't count the number of times Harry has mentioned never to look weak in front of predators and a guy who already uses a cane being pulled around like an idiot by his jacket looks pretty weak.
Not that I am fan of how Carlos is acting, but I think the winter knight settled the scales on that one.
vincentric:
--- Quote from: Mira on December 03, 2021, 07:35:35 PM ---Would you have admitted to having sex with the woman you had sex with was present? Gentlemen don't do that, last I checked Harry was old school gentleman. Why do the sex test to start with? Why would Carlos order that? Especially given the fact that Murphy had gone to the estate with Harry... Sorry but stinks of a framing..
Normally I'd agree, but there is also the view point that by secretly implanting that tracking device on Harry earlier, says that Harry was already suspected of something and Carlos went along with it.
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Go back and reread that chapter. Murphy was not present when Ramirez and the team met Harry. She and Ramirez share no scenes in PT or BG. The closest the two come is when Murphy picks up Thomas, Lara and Freydis outside while Ethniu and Corb are entering the castle.
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