The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?

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Arjan:

--- Quote from: SerScot on November 04, 2021, 12:15:10 AM ---Honestly, the laser focus on Harry hurts the series.  Particularly the last two books they would have been much better had it been from multiple POVs.  A battle of that scale seems small when seen through the eyes of one person.

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Multiple POV tends to break the story. I want to skip chapters to continue with the POV I was reading.

Arjan:

--- Quote from: Mira on November 03, 2021, 09:03:47 PM ---Would it?  With Mab's shadow hanging over everything?  You really think that would work out well?

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The Gatekeeper saw no problem in Harry being the winter knight. Molly would have had a few years extra until Harry got into trouble with the council. Enough time maybe to become a wizard herself or arrange something else.

--- Quote ---It would matter if Molly had a reason, but she got her answer at her trial.But he didn't know, did he?  Charity made sure he didn't know, she would have overruled any discussion about Molly's talents between Michael and Harry. 

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The question was what if Harry knew? Michael is not stupid. He would have had a discussion with his wife and they would come up with something better than ignoring it.

--- Quote ---Plus that little rebellious streak was in Molly from the get go, that is what got her into trouble in the first place.

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Sure but ignoring it is always worse. Some things were drilled into her and difficult to ignore by her. She did stay a virgin and she did not use heroine for example. They could have tried the same thing with the seven laws. It would not have been automatically hopeless.

--- Quote ---Maybe, but that doesn't mean that they'd be good ones.  Molly went out of her way to do opposite of what her mother especially wanted.. Call it a teenage thing. 

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Sure but a combination of Harry and Michael could have prevented things in an earlier stage, that was the question I was answering.

--- Quote ---Considering who she ran with, without talent she still could have gotten into a lot of trouble.

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Sure but not with the council so no beheading. She did have some boundaries so there was a good chance she would recover from it. 

--- Quote ---Not just exploited, Lasciel knew Harry intimately, her shadow lived in his head for many years, she knew exactly what buttons to push.

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But the buttons were there in his nature. None of his friends who knew him best were really surprised.

--- Quote ---Let's not forget that Changes is all about Harry going to these people for help to save little Maggie, but it wasn't enough, they had no answers.. He even summoned an archangel to plea for help, an old Norse god, in the end he was left with the least bad of several bad options.  The only Winter Knight in action he ever witnessed was Slate, and what he had heard of others, Bob had told him.  Harry didn't want to become a monster.  Ironic that Carlos now calls him a monster, but I digress.  Uriel tells him before he makes his decision that if he strays from the path out of love, he can get back on the path.. But did Harry really have time to ponder that?  Eb tells him at C.I. that Mab cannot really force him to go against his will, but the dye had already been cast by then.. Uriel's seven words were great and made Harry feel better, but the damage had already been done.  Yeah, letting your daughter die, your grandfather die, and yourself die, for a promise... Morally that can be argued several ways depending on point of view and belief system.  However to think Molly wasn't unaware of what she did, is a mistake, she knew exactly what she was doing and knew that sometimes promises have to be broken.  She made the decision she made just like when she went into the heads of her friends to cure their drug addiction. 

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Not the point. This is about Harry. That a person has free will is never an argument to tempt or ask that person to do something wrong and also not a cop out for you when you asked it. Especially if you have influence over and responsibility for that person and Harry had both.

That is what con men do. They find a soft target and they will tell you it is their fault because they are stupid and greedy but that does not absolve them. There are always people to abuse.

--- Quote ---That simply isn't true, if it were, he would have taken up a coin a long time ago and Michael wouldn't be his friend.

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Harry has potential and can be saved but his road to hell is still open. Exactly the kind of person Michael wants to help.

--- Quote ---Um, he was a scared 16 year old kid when he made his deal with Lea.. Mab bought the contract, Murphy has no clue about any of that, she thinks she does, but she has no clue how that even works.  Which deal?  The one to clear out Mavra's nest or the one to shoot him through the heart?  If he is so untrustworthy how is it he ends up with the Spear of Destiny? 

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Because Nicodemus did not. Moral perfection was not part of the deal.

--- Quote ---He may have been wrong about some stuff, but he didn't abuse the teach/pupil relationship.  He never tried to exploit or abuse her. 

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He avoided one form of abuse but not all of them. Abuse is not always about force either. Enlisting her to arrange his suicide is a form of abuse of that relation. At some level she just wanted to please her teacher.

Taking her to CI was another one. He did not even warn her.

--- Quote ---Taught her a different lesson?  About what?  Let us not forget he wasn't the only teacher in her life, she had her parents, Michael and Charity, Father Forthill, she was around Murphy, other Holy Knights, on the whole a pretty solid foundation.

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All those other teachers had their own responsibilities to her.

--- Quote ---Yes, and the Fae are tricky, they like to twist, Lea did a good job in preparing Molly to be a Lady, that was never Harry's goal.  His goal was to mostly to help her keep her head and his along with it.
Lea didn't give a damn if what she taught Molly may cost her her head.

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Mira:

--- Quote ---The Gatekeeper saw no problem in Harry being the winter knight. Molly would have had a few years extra until Harry got into trouble with the council. Enough time maybe to become a wizard herself or arrange something else.
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But that is Rashid, who sees things differently, at Molly's trial he is the only one until the rest returned that didn't just rubber stamp her execution.  And I doubt that he voted for Harry's expulsion from the Council, most likely wasn't even there.  Would she have had those extra years?  Woulda, shoulda, coulda, that is hypothetical, in Turn Coat she had already back slid once, and both her and Harry could have lost their heads except Morgan and Luccio didn't turn her in.  It wasn't what Harry was teaching, or how he was teaching, or worry about her beloved Harry losing his head as well, none of that stopped her from violating the Law when she thought she was right.  It could simply be that the Merlin was right, the slippery slope to warlockhood is steep and almost impossible to come back from.

--- Quote ---The question was what if Harry knew? Michael is not stupid. He would have had a discussion with his wife and they would come up with something better than ignoring it.
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Michael knew that his wife had talent once, I cannot believe he didn't give it a thought on whether or not that trait could be handed down to one of his kids.  Perhaps he thought if he raised them to be God fearing with in the Faith, there wouldn't be a problem.  We've no answer to that question, except neither he nor Charity discussed this at any time with Harry.  But then I remember a time, and there are still are people out there who think if you teach sex education that it only encourages
kids to have sex..   

--- Quote ---Sure but ignoring it is always worse. Some things were drilled into her and difficult to ignore by her. She did stay a virgin and she did not use heroine for example. They could have tried the same thing with the seven laws. It would not have been automatically hopeless.
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But apparently they didn't, I am not even sure that either Charity or Michael know what the Seven Laws are, their focus was the Ten Commandments.  And you are right Molly believes in them, that is what damaged her when she assisted Harry's suicide.  Her heart and mind agreed with what Harry wanted, that is why she did it, however her conscience tore her apart because assisting a suicide goes so against the Faith she was raised in.  Which brings up yet another point, why didn't she go to her father and mother, or Father Forthill after Harry died and confess what she had done and why she did it.  They could have helped her more than Eb or even Listens to Wind, once her head was back on straight, then Michael himself could have taken her to the Council and plea that someone step forward to either test her to be a full wizard or finish her apprenticeship. 

--- Quote ---Sure but a combination of Harry and Michael could have prevented things in an earlier stage, that was the question I was answering.
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Could have, but prevention only works when you understand what it is you are trying to prevent.  We know from Proven Guilty that Harry had no clue as to whether any of the Carpenter kids had talent, and because he was never told about Charity no reason to suspect it.  All Charity knew was when she was Molly's age her talent showed itself and she went down a very dark path.  I'd go so far as to say if it weren't that dragon and Michael coming along to kill it and her falling in love with him, she could have lost her own head long ago.  She isn't a stupid woman, however out of fear and ignorance she did the worst thing possible for her children, hoping that if she kept it to herself the talent wouldn't rear it's head.  This would have happened even if the Carpenters had never met Harry, with perhaps a worse conclusion, because the talent is in the genes not the environment.

--- Quote ---Sure but not with the council so no beheading. She did have some boundaries so there was a good chance she would recover from it.
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True, no beheading, but the streets of Chicago are rough places, a lot of ugly things can happen to runaways who take to the streets.  She wouldn't have been the first nor sadly the last to be killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or raped etc, her up bringing wouldn't save her from those things.

--- Quote ---But the buttons were there in his nature. None of his friends who knew him best were really surprised.
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Of course they weren't, we all have buttons that others who know us well can push and do.  Yes, his friends may have known about them, but because they were his friends they didn't try to manipulate him by pushing them.  Lasciel did, that is why it was such a big deal when Harry threw off her Shadow, in the end he resisted the button pushing.  She was only really successful when he was hurt and desperate, and then she did it out of revenge, she wanted him dead... She knows Harry's over developed conscience, hurt, so much on the line, he is helpless to do anything, "and it is all your fault!"

--- Quote ---Not the point. This is about Harry. That a person has free will is never an argument to tempt or ask that person to do something wrong and also not a cop out for you when you asked it. Especially if you have influence over and responsibility for that person and Harry had both.
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Did he really?  Perhaps in her teenage mind Harry was some kind of hero, but then so was her father.  That was no more Harry's fault than it is Michael's.  When Harry was at the Carpenters recovering from injuries it was because he and Michael had fought together to save some portion of the world from something.  Heck they named their youngest son after him.  However Harry wasn't at the Carpenters on a daily basis, he didn't see them much socially, his impression was that Charity didn't like him so he seldom visited the house.  Go back and read the passages when he and young Molly interacted, Harry never overtly or covertly tried to influence her..  The BIG THING is he was kept IGNORANT of her mother's history, so he had no reason to look for talent.  Molly didn't attempt cute magical parlor tricks around him, she didn't suddenly become Wonder Woman on the play ground.  Harry only saw her as a nice intelligent kid who helped her mother raise her younger bothers and sisters.  And even if he had been able to spot her talent before it all went wrong, would Charity have allowed him to either begin her training or get another better qualified wizard who could?  Michael might have gone along with it, but what of Charity?  She only went along with it after the horse had left the barn and her daughter's head was in real jeopardy.

--- Quote ---That is what con men do. They find a soft target and they will tell you it is their fault because they are stupid and greedy but that does not absolve them. There are always people to abuse.
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But Harry never tried to con Molly, he didn't preplan his suicide thus grooming Molly to assist him..  She got a real dose of reality at her trial, she knew what was at stake when she attempted to go into Luccio and Morgan's minds.. She didn't do that because Harry groomed her to do that or abused her so she'd do that.  She did it because she still suffered from the black magic addiction that ultimately creates a warlock.  That is why it is so hard to rehab one.

--- Quote ---Harry has potential and can be saved but his road to hell is still open. Exactly the kind of person Michael wants to help.
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Yes, and it is thus for all of us.. We all have free will and make choices, and sometimes that road is paved with good intentions that leads to hell.

--- Quote ---Because Nicodemus did not. Moral perfection was not part of the deal.
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I'm not so sure about that, remember what Hades said about the Artifacts, they only end up in the hands of those who pass the test. Morality could very well be part of it,Nic was lying to begin with, he willingly sacrificed his daughter so he could gain his prize.. Ever stop to think that requiring a blood sacrifice was part of the test? God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Issac, and he was willing to go along with it.. However an angel stopped him when he was willing to do that. The point is that Nic was willing to sacrifice his daughter, not to prove his love of God but to gain a prize for power, then he lied to her, saying in Hades her soul wouldn't face judgement or punishment from the Almighty.

--- Quote ---He avoided one form of abuse but not all of them. Abuse is not always about force either. Enlisting her to arrange his suicide is a form of abuse of that relation. At some level she just wanted to please her teacher.
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You know as well as I that it was a lot more complicated than that.  There are mitigating factors, i.e. Harry's state of mind, he was hurt, a Fallen Angel had just whispered that it was all his fault, he was being forced into becoming what he didn't want to be, a monster.  There was no one to tell him that becoming Winter Knight wouldn't necessarily make him a monster. Uriel could have, but he didn't.. So he thought of the one way out of it, death, and the only person who could help him fool Mab was Molly.  Would he have done it had he realized what kind of harm he was doing to her? I won't say that he wouldn't have,but he may have explained it better to her in order for her to make her decision. People assist the suicide of their loved ones every day,why? Because they want to end their suffering. Some do suffer the damage of conscience like Molly did, and others never lose a moments sleep over it. The point is they too were asked, did the loved one who asked them abuse them by asking?

--- Quote ---All those other teachers had their own responsibilities to her.
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Yes, and it is the sum of all those teachers, not just Harry..  He should have let them cut off her head because he failed some of his responsibilities later to her?  Really?  She was in the position to lose her head before Harry ever was her teacher, that damage had already been done.  She understood the stakes once he became her teacher, the point is, saving her from the chop gave her a chance.  Not unlike the Holy Knights, their job is giving a chance for redemption, but the redeeming part is up to the Denarian who gives up the coin and given another chance at life.  Harry saved her head the first time, but rest was really up to Molly.

morriswalters:
Nothing that anybody else did or didn't do has anything to do with Harry's obligation.  Nor does it have anything to do with Molly's agency.  Harry failed his obligation to Molly. It doesn't matter if he asked and she acquiesced.  He shouldn't have asked. It's that simple. 

Molly can choose to go to hell by her own free will. But Harry had no right to use his position to push her.
--- Quote from: SerScot on November 04, 2021, 12:15:10 AM ---Honestly, the laser focus on Harry hurts the series.  Particularly the last two books they would have been much better had it been from multiple POVs.  A battle of that scale seems small when seen through the eyes of one person.

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It might have been better if he had embraced the claustrophobia of combat.

Mira:

--- Quote from: morriswalters on November 04, 2021, 11:28:17 PM ---Nothing that anybody else did or didn't do has anything to do with Harry's obligation.  Nor does it have anything to do with Molly's agency.  Harry failed his obligation to Molly. It doesn't matter if he asked and she acquiesced.  He shouldn't have asked. It's that simple. 

Molly can choose to go to hell by her own free will. But Harry had no right to use his position to push her.It might have been better if he had embraced the claustrophobia of combat.

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You make it sound like Harry coldly and calculatingly put her in that position.  It didn't go down that way, plain and simple.  Harry was at the end of his rope, mentally, physically, emotionally, he was choosing death/suicide rather than become a monster.  However he couldn't do it alone.  Yes, it put Molly in a tough position, but to think she didn't understand and made her own choice, you are mistaken.. That is why she doesn't hold a grudge towards Harry.  Yes, he put her in a tough position so do a lot of desperate people who ask of us stuff that maybe they shouldn't.  However agreeing to it or not agreeing is her choice.. Yes, that was hard on her, but consider the alternative, if little Maggie, Harry, and Eb all died at once or Harry's worst fears about being Winter Knight came true and he ended up like Slate.. What would that do to her head if she had chosen to say, no..

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