The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Is Cassius death curse in effect already?
Mira:
--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on October 03, 2021, 10:14:54 PM ---Namshiel obviously thinks that Marcone could drop his coin just like that.
--- End quote ---
I'd agree, but Marcone also knows he doesn't have that much magical talent without Namshiel, it is a match made in Hell you might say...
Basil:
Cassius' death curse is in effect, but also ineffective. As Malcolm pointed out, Death is a Door one person wide. Cassius might as well as cursed Harry to live for all the good/harm it would do.
As to Marcone, I believe he has the strength of will to drop the coin in an instant, if he believes the benefits no longer outweigh the costs.
However, I wonder if he could still do magic if he dropped the coin. My suspicion is that, yes he could. I don't really think that the coins allow you do to things that you couldn't do yourself -- if you had the knowledge, training, etc. The coins are massive short-cuts to power, not the power itself.
Take the shapeshifting. Sure, Ursiel and Magog's hosts can turn into very impressive battle forms of grape apes and giant demon bears. BUT, we know that the Alphas can do something very similar, on a smaller scale. Perhaps the Alphas could turn into giant demon bears if they worked on that. We know they are trying to see if they can use their shapeshifting to do other things -- like rapid healing.
Perhaps Marcone had the tiniest bit of magical talents. Another person with that same amount of talent has neither the need, inclination, knowledge or will to develop that talent. And so, even with a bit of dabbling, that person is going to die before bringing themselves up to an ordinary wizard level, let alone to the Senior Council level of ability. Marcone get's a shortcut. What would have taken him hundreds and hundreds of years has taken him a decade.
But, kind of like when you take a short cut in real life, if you've made it to your destination, there you are. Maybe he couldn't do hellfire if he dropped the coin, but I think he could do anything else he learned how to do with Namshiel's assistance for himself.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Take the shapeshifting. Sure, Ursiel and Magog's hosts can turn into very impressive battle forms of grape apes and giant demon bears. BUT, we know that the Alphas can do something very similar, on a smaller scale. Perhaps the Alphas could turn into giant demon bears if they worked on that. We know they are trying to see if they can use their shapeshifting to do other things -- like rapid healing.
--- End quote ---
I don't think so, the Alphas didn't need the coin to turn, and so far none of them have even tried to be other than what they are, werewolves. As far as Marcone goes, at the end of the day, a wizard needs talent to power his spells. The more talent, the more power, Thomas did say that everyone has some talent, but that doesn't make everyone potential wizards. I think if Marcone had that kind of talent he would have used it to his advantage long before he picked up a coin. If he dropped the coin he may still have the knowledge, but he'd lack the power to do any of the spells.
Or a better example, when the Shadow of Lachiel was in Harry's head, he could understand many languages, read them, even speak them, after Lash sacrificed herself, he cannot do that, nor can he create Hell Fire anymore, though he can create fire.. That is the temptation of the coin, if you could do these things without the coin, why would you be tempted to pick it up?
Basil:
--- Quote ---I don't think so, the Alphas didn't need the coin to turn, and so far none of them have even tried to be other than what they are, werewolves. As far as Marcone goes, at the end of the day, a wizard needs talent to power his spells. The more talent, the more power, Thomas did say that everyone has some talent, but that doesn't make everyone potential wizards. I think if Marcone had that kind of talent he would have used it to his advantage long before he picked up a coin. If he dropped the coin he may still have the knowledge, but he'd lack the power to do any of the spells.
Or a better example, when the Shadow of Lachiel was in Harry's head, he could understand many languages, read them, even speak them, after Lash sacrificed herself, he cannot do that, nor can he create Hell Fire anymore, though he can create fire.. That is the temptation of the coin, if you could do these things without the coin, why would you be tempted to pick it up?
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My point is that the Alphas are proof that you don't need a coin. I think that Alphas could turn into giant demon bears or grape apes -- just like Listens to Wind -- if they worked on it. The Alphas are working on other stuff, just not grape apes, according to them. Frankly, why would they? wolves are almost ideal predators if you have a pack. Grey proved to me that giant demon bears are not that practical.
Harry could learn to speak all sorts of languages too -- if he worked on it -- I can't be bothered to learn Spanish, not because of an lack of use for it, but because I'm too lazy. But, I'd take a Matrix download of Spanish in a heartbeat.
In short, the temptation of the Coin is NOT the skills or the power per se, it's that they get to skip the hardship of EARNING those skills. Hellfire might be the one exception. You might not be able to channel Hellfire without that demonic bargain, whether express or implicit.
In short, Marcone could become a Senior Council level wizard -- but he doesn't have the six hundred years of life and hard work it would take. A Coin is a great short cut, so he gives into the temptation. His further temptation is that if he could do X in a decade, what could he do with infinity? I'm sure Namshiel TELLS him that if he ever gave the coin up, he couldn't do X anymore. If Marcone believes him, then he won't be able to do X. But, personally, I think it's a lie. Once you learn to tie your shoes, magically speaking, you can.
This actually ties into Alera a bit too, potentially rising to the level of a "theme" of Jim Butcher (a weight lifter and martial artist, I might add). In the early books, the injustice we feel on behalf of Tavi is NOT that the Aquitaines have nearly god-like power, it is the injustice that it seems to come so easily to them because of their blood while Tavi, who wants it very bad, works very hard and is admirable in almost every respect is denied that same power.
In fact, we are not really shown any powerful crafter working on being a powerful crafter -- not even the students in Academ's Fury. I would suggest that this was intentional on Butcher's part, to keep our sense of injustice well stoked. In fact, Academ's Fury raised my sense of injustice because it just seemed as if the crafting rich got richer.
After we have Tavi's training montage where Alera herself trains him (though much failure and hypothermia), we learn that even Invidia went through a lot of hardship and training as her father (whoever he was) sent her to learn from numerous master crafters and artisans to refine her skill over the course of years.
Then, as Alera's final act, she agrees to implement Tavi's merit based crafting program where humans will be limited only by their own expectations, desire and hardwork. Injustice solved for all time.
Mira:
--- Quote ---
My point is that the Alphas are proof that you don't need a coin. I think that Alphas could turn into giant demon bears or grape apes -- just like Listens to Wind -- if they worked on it. The Alphas are working on other stuff, just not grape apes, according to them. Frankly, why would they? wolves are almost ideal predators if you have a pack. Grey proved to me that giant demon bears are not that practical.
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Yes, but not everyone can become an Alpha, there is some other stuff going on as well. If you don't have that pre-existing talent, without a coin, I don't think it is going to happen. I think the bigger question is why do you think you need to turn into anything with the power and strength that comes with it? That is the temptation, Nic is very careful to match potential hosts with their coins, he had good reasons to match Lasciel with Harry.
--- Quote ---Harry could learn to speak all sorts of languages too -- if he worked on it -- I can't be bothered to learn Spanish, not because of an lack of use for it, but because I'm too lazy. But, I'd take a Matrix download of Spanish in a heartbeat.
--- End quote ---
Yes, if he worked at it, but then again how many people teach conversational Etruscan these days? Yes, with Lasciel's help Harry could and was able to understand the Ghouls.
--- Quote ---In short, the temptation of the Coin is NOT the skills or the power per se, it's that they get to skip the hardship of EARNING those skills. Hellfire might be the one exception. You might not be able to channel Hellfire without that demonic bargain, whether express or implicit.
--- End quote ---
No, reread the conversations between Lasciel and Harry, even after he mastered Hell Fire etc., she was tempting him with more power.. It isn't about earning those skills, Harry already had a pretty good fire spell, he had learned and earned it, Hell Fire really wasn't a short cut for him at all.
--- Quote ---In short, Marcone could become a Senior Council level wizard -- but he doesn't have the six hundred years of life and hard work it would take. A Coin is a great short cut, so he gives into the temptation. His further temptation is that if he could do X in a decade, what could he do with infinity? I'm sure Namshiel TELLS him that if he ever gave the coin up, he couldn't do X anymore. If Marcone believes him, then he won't be able to do X. But, personally, I think it's a lie. Once you learn to tie your shoes, magically speaking, you can.
--- End quote ---
No, you pretty much lose whatever skill you got with the bargain. Look as Cassius, first things first, when he gave up his coin, he started to age rather rapidly to whatever his real age was.
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