The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
White Council Top Members
Mira:
--- Quote ---I mean if he had Blackstaff he could have straight up killed him, but yeah it was more than a friendly sparring match. Harry held his own is the point, puts his combat abilities in the top 10.
--- End quote ---
Eb didn't need the Blackstaff to defeat Harry, his arsenal of skills honed over three hundred years or more were enough for that. No, I think Eb was trying to pull his punches some, this is he grandson after all. However he needed to stop him, and Harry is powerful no argument there. Powerful enough that when he wouldn't give up it triggered the fail safe that killed his double.
groinkick:
My opinion is that there are levels of wizards. The top tier wizards are the Senior Council members. So less than ten. These wizards are the best, and most powerful, and have access to secret power that the lower tiers don't have. They are head and shoulders above the next tier. I see Dresden as being in the top few wizards of the 2nd tier. He's head and shoulders above the third tier.
So it's like top tier has maybe 10 wizards (if that)
Second tier has like 50 wizards. I see Harry as in the top of this tier, and able to reach the next tier eventually. (If you minus Demonreach and Winter Knight Mantle)
Third tier is like 16 year old Harry Dresden. Powerful, capable, but can't stand with the big kids.
Fourth tier is where the bulk of the wizard population is.
I'm just spit balling here
Con:
We don't actually have any personal examples of White Council Wizards outside of combat.
Ancient Mai is supposed to be less combat oriented, but seemed confident enough in Turn Coat and is a Senior Council member.
Similarly Martha Liberty, she has some empathic spirit magic.
Listens to Winds is an outright badass despite being a healer.
Rashid regularly fights at the Outer Gates and has some elements of foresight.
Klaus the Toymaker- WOJ is he beat a bunch of Nazi sorcerers with a wind up duck.
Langtry stopped the entire Red Court with one ward.
Ed0517:
--- Quote from: Second Aristh on September 19, 2021, 06:33:05 PM ---Ramirez was in charge and got to pick the security detail, so he went with wardens he was comfortable working with and that were good in a fight. It's why he approached Harry in PT to join the security detail.
--- End quote ---
The event was in the US. A US regional commander is the logical choice to head security. Harry is one, but he also has ties with one of the other parties, could be a conflict. Plus, Harry is not really an organizer here...
--- Quote ---We also know that Chandler is a very trusted warden by WoJ. He's one of the few that gets solo guard duty for Edinburgh. He's also allowed to pursue his time magic specialty, even though it skirts one of the Laws.
--- End quote ---
Chandler is mentioned as always being around the Seniors. He's why I said "for the most part" He works security at the Ways too. His role with the SC is not exactly defined, but he could be a bodyguard. He didn't go to Demonreach, but maybe he usually works with Martha - she was in Chicago, but not Demonreach.
--- Quote ---In the end, I think its pretty safe to say that Harry is in the top 15 most dangerous wizards after BG. He's got plenty of raw power for a wizard. He's (painstakingly) slowly improving his control and efficiency with magic. He's got a long list of powerful entities where he has a strong working relationship. He has a fallback position where he's nearly invincible in Demonreach. Plus, he has the Winter Knight's mantle to draw upon and to guard his physical flank.
--- End quote ---
i don't think we know enough of the other wizards to rank him this high. If he has 30 older wizards with more raw power - and more experience - at least a few are going to be combat-oriented, and ahead of him. Where, for example, is Klaus the Toymaker? They went thru several other names before they got to Eb when he took the seat too.
--- Quote ---In a fair fight (not that those actually exist in this series), Harry is definitely a big-ish fish in the WC.
--- End quote ---
big-ish? Sure. But if there are a couple thousand wizards, 50 is pretty big-ish too.
Ed0517:
--- Quote from: Basil on September 21, 2021, 12:44:52 AM ---I'm going to be a bit contrarian here. I don't think Harry is actually that good at magical combat. I'll bet that he's maybe top 50 in the council, which considering their casualties over the past ten years is not as great as it seems.
To use a combat sport analogy to explain, I'd say that Harry is a good puncher, but not a good boxer. Like a lot of very hard hitters, it's a crutch for him and he leans on it way too much. His duel with Hannah Asher was quite ironic, given that he was essentially fighting himself from only a few years prior.
We've seen several examples of far less -- let's use the word energetic, rather than powerful -- practitioners demonstrate that they could be more than a match for Harry.
It's actually a good thing for the narrative that he is so bad. Given the potential power he wields, if he were also very skilled, it would lower the stakes.
--- End quote ---
I agree. In fact, I'll give an example IN a combat sport.
A wise veteran fighter, as it happens, an ex-champ himself, faces an up-and-comer. Max Schmeling watches film, one of the first athletes to break down film, and when asked why, Max supposedly says "I think I see something."
His opponent is a young Joe Louis. Fast, strong, can hit. Joe Louis is Harry. Joe didn't have good management, was very rough on his skills, getting by on physical gifts.
They meet, and the supposedly over the hill Max knocks Joe out in the 12th.
2 years later, the rematch. Joe's team has been replaced, his new trainer is not an idiot. Joe's skills have been polished somewhat, he is not as crude. Joe knocks out Max in the first.
Max is a better trained wizard. Maybe even Carlos. not as much power, but uses what he has well. Well schooled, well trained. Skills gets him a narrow decision over raw power.
Harry is Joe. raw power carried him far, until he reached a level it was not enough. But Joe took a step back, and honed his craft. Got better teaching. With even somewhat close skills, his gifts would let him dominate a rematch.
Carlos might be close to Harry now in a fight, skills vs. strength, but with a little work, Harry crushes him.
(in case you care, early in his career Joe dropped his left after a jab - a common amateurish mistake. It invited the right cross as a counter. Max had a good one. After the loss to Schmeling they fixed this flaw. Louis then became one of the most dominant heavyweight champs.)
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