Author Topic: Notes on Contagion  (Read 8698 times)

Offline groinkick

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Re: Notes on Contagion
« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2021, 05:08:27 AM »
Titania? 

I think Nemesis probably has different settings for its hosts.  Active vs passive possession, and possibly others.  Basically varying degrees to which Nemesis has to focus its attention to maintain control.  It used Maeve's jealousy to get her on its side, so it didn't need to exert much if any power there.  Comparatively, Lea and Cat Sith fought against it, and Nemesis had to take a more active role.

Doh I meant Aurora.

Great points.  Nemesis doesn't appear to be all powerful when attached to a host.  In a way it reminds me of Harry and Lash..  She was always in his head, tempting him, but he still had a Choice.  I wonder if a person can force It away or if it's like the Winter Knight Mantle...  Mab, if needed could force Harry to act, but once that's done, she'd have to always control him directly, requiring more of her attention.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2021, 05:13:04 AM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Second Aristh

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Re: Notes on Contagion
« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2021, 05:12:41 AM »
Doh I meant Aurora
Ah I should have guessed.  With Aurora, you almost wonder if she even realized she was infected. Then again, that's the kind of act Nemesis might put up for people not in the know like Harry was at the time.
We shall not fail or falter, we shall not weaken or tire...Give us the tools, and we will finish the job.--Winston Churchill

Offline groinkick

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Re: Notes on Contagion
« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2021, 05:14:42 AM »
Ah I should have guessed.  With Aurora, you almost wonder if she even realized she was infected. Then again, that's the kind of act Nemesis might put up for people not in the know like Harry was at the time.

I think the Harry/Lash thing is similar.  Nemesis is telling them what they want to hear, manipulating them, and so they work with it.  But if they refused, it would force itself into control which would make things more difficult.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Second Aristh

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Re: Notes on Contagion
« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2021, 05:46:07 AM »
I think the Harry/Lash thing is similar.  Nemesis is telling them what they want to hear, manipulating them, and so they work with it.  But if they refused, it would force itself into control which would make things more difficult.
Yeah, that's a good analogy to go on for what we know.
We shall not fail or falter, we shall not weaken or tire...Give us the tools, and we will finish the job.--Winston Churchill

Offline Mira

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Re: Notes on Contagion
« Reply #49 on: August 15, 2021, 10:55:06 AM »
Maeve, and Titania Aurora didn't appear overpowered.  They thought they were doing what was right.  Catsith appeared overpowered, as did Justine.  I don't know why some appear to be totally controlled while others are more manipulated rather than brute forced.

Maeve had "mommy issues" to begin with, so vulnerable to being seduced rather than overpowered.. Power and revenge can be irresistible to someone as unhappy in her job as Maeve was.  Aurora didn't have "mommy issues" as far as we know, but she might not have been the brightest star in the sky either, like Lily she may have been easy to convince what she was doing was best.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Notes on Contagion
« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2021, 01:30:19 AM »
Could they be Nemesis possessed, sure.  Were they?  I really doubt it.  They're not well placed enough to be worth Nemesis's resources.  I don't think it would have expended the energy to add them to its collection of possessable options. 

Not necessarily exclusive, but more likely than not.  The BC and Nemesis both think they're using each other to get ahead.  I'm convinced that Maggie Sr is the founder of the Black Council and tried to get out.

I disagree.  A prolonged war means two Accorded nations effectively take each other out, meaning less defenders for reality and a void to fill that's twice as wide.  More chaos for Nemesis to take advantage of at the end of the day.  A Red Court victory would have humanity worse off, but the Red Court still wants to keep up the masquerade for humanity and to avoid Empty Night.


Cowl/Mavra picked Bianca as their vector to start trouble, hence Chicago.  She was conveniently near a White Council wizard they had some interest in already (he killed his first handler, Justin; plus he's a starborn--a good resource for people trying to swindle outsiders).  Harry could be tested, recruited, or used as leverage to start the wizard-vampire war.  All good reasons to start preparations in Chicago.
Unless those mortals were well placed - in reference to Harry. Each of them are part of significant events in his life. It could well be that Nemesis is far more focussed on Harry than we realise.

It's certainly possible Maggie was the founder. I personally think it's actually older and Kemmler founded it. But there's no way to know really until we have more information about the Black Council. Btw, do we know for sure that the Black Council think they're using Nemesis? I don't remember any conversation with a confirmed member of this still-unconfirmed organisation. We only have Harry's speculation on the whole thing. We don't have anyone saying "Hey, join our super friends team called "the Black Council" - we have great dental!". I think we have to be careful about assuming anything about the Black Council.

Did the Red Court want to avoid Empty Night? Were the ideals of the whole of the Court the same as the ideas of their most dominant faction? Did the leadership of the Court really say what they wanted?

I don't think we have any real answers to those questions. But we do know that Arianna represented a powerful faction at odds with the Red King. We know that there was at least one Lord of the Outer Night involved who wished to rule the whole Red Court.

Considering the Red Court leaders called themselves the Lords of the "Outer Night" which has been used interchangeably in the series with Outside...there is a clear connection between the two. Who says they weren't merely the agents of the Outside on Earth? The goals of the Red Court were largely unknown beyond feeding, domination and slaughter. Let alone the goals of the Red King, or whatever internal faction Arianna was a part of etc.

We just don't know if the Red Court really wanted the Masquerade to continue. In point of fact, part of the reason to remove the Wizards was to begin a free-for-all hunting season on humanity.

I'll probably never get the Chicago reasons unless Jim bothers to go deeper than "this is where my writing teacher told me to set it". He could have a reason like "this is the prophesized location of the final battle etc." or something to that effect. But he either is keeping that from us deliberately or he never really thought about it and might choose to come up with it later, or might not. I would prefer it as it grates on my mind. Honestly, you could solve the problem with a single piece of information.



Offline Second Aristh

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Re: Notes on Contagion
« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2021, 09:49:28 PM »
Unless those mortals were well placed - in reference to Harry. Each of them are part of significant events in his life. It could well be that Nemesis is far more focussed on Harry than we realise.
It's possible, but I don't think it's the most likely solution.  Not without more compelling evidence.


It's certainly possible Maggie was the founder. I personally think it's actually older and Kemmler founded it. But there's no way to know really until we have more information about the Black Council. Btw, do we know for sure that the Black Council think they're using Nemesis? I don't remember any conversation with a confirmed member of this still-unconfirmed organisation. We only have Harry's speculation on the whole thing. We don't have anyone saying "Hey, join our super friends team called "the Black Council" - we have great dental!". I think we have to be careful about assuming anything about the Black Council.
It's speculation, but it fits what we know so far about Maggie Sr's associates.  Kemmler is possible, but he strikes me as more of a lone megalomaniac than the guy to build a legion of doom.

I like Maggie Sr for the Circle founder because we know that she was hopping all around the world befriending some tough customers.  We also know from Luccio she was interested in changing the Laws of Magic to be more just.  That led to the famous dinner fight with Eb and some major vampire players where she tried to recruit him.  When that didn't work, she went to his best friend Simon Pietrovich, i.e. Cowl.  His apprentice Justin DuMorne follows along.  Eventually, Maggie Sr changes her mind about things and tries to pull out, and she's only mildly successful.  The rest is difficult to make guesses at without a better understanding of motives.

As far as using Nemesis, it's been around forever from what we can surmise.  For a Maggie Sr Circle, desperate for the power to try to make the world a better place, Nemesis probably seemed like a dangerous but enticing ally.  They don't want it to succeed in destroying reality, but they need its power to make the changes they think should be made to the current order.  Nemesis is using the BC to get ahead itself with the chaos of a secret powerful faction.


Did the Red Court want to avoid Empty Night? Were the ideals of the whole of the Court the same as the ideas of their most dominant faction? Did the leadership of the Court really say what they wanted?

I don't think we have any real answers to those questions. But we do know that Arianna represented a powerful faction at odds with the Red King. We know that there was at least one Lord of the Outer Night involved who wished to rule the whole Red Court.

Considering the Red Court leaders called themselves the Lords of the "Outer Night" which has been used interchangeably in the series with Outside...there is a clear connection between the two. Who says they weren't merely the agents of the Outside on Earth? The goals of the Red Court were largely unknown beyond feeding, domination and slaughter. Let alone the goals of the Red King, or whatever internal faction Arianna was a part of etc.

We just don't know if the Red Court really wanted the Masquerade to continue. In point of fact, part of the reason to remove the Wizards was to begin a free-for-all hunting season on humanity.
I don't think "Outer Night" is anywhere interchangeable with beyond the Outer Gates.

It's hard to figure out different motivations for the Red Court factions because most of the perspectives that we get are villain monologues.  I don't think they wanted to end the masquerade, just less interference on how they managed their food source.  Riled mortals are still stronger with their ferromancy.
We shall not fail or falter, we shall not weaken or tire...Give us the tools, and we will finish the job.--Winston Churchill

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Notes on Contagion
« Reply #52 on: August 24, 2021, 01:15:16 AM »
I could easily see where Outer Night could be tied to the Outside, but there's been nothing definitively shown in the series to establish it.

There's "Out", and "Night", and twelve Lords plus the King totalling thirteen. But thirteen is also a mortal number, so it's not exclusive to outside things like the cornerhounds.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Notes on Contagion
« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2021, 07:32:51 AM »
It's possible, but I don't think it's the most likely solution.  Not without more compelling evidence.
To each their own. The list of questions for Jim grows and sadly I don't think he will answer any of them soon.

It's speculation, but it fits what we know so far about Maggie Sr's associates.  Kemmler is possible, but he strikes me as more of a lone megalomaniac than the guy to build a legion of doom.
Kemmler was associated with the Thule Society though in Fistful of Warlocks, I believe. He also did have a cadre of apprentices and allies - demons, vampires, some of the nastier Fae. He was hardly alone. We've even met at least three of them (Cowl, Grevane, and the Corpsetaker) if not more potentially (two unnamed apprentices in A Fistful of Warlocks) and possibly even others yet to be revealed. I can't say for certain he started the Black Council. But he did much of what they were doing while he was alive. He was destabilising the world order, he was upsetting the balances of power, and he particularly went after the White Council - just like the Black Council. He also used the same symbol as the Denarians (the anarchy pentagram) in a Fistful of Warlocks - and considering it seems like Thorned Namshiel built that particular circle in Small Favor, and he was/is one of the likeliest Black Council candidates on the Denarians prior to Marcone bonding with him, it seems like a link.

I like Maggie Sr for the Circle founder because we know that she was hopping all around the world befriending some tough customers.  We also know from Luccio she was interested in changing the Laws of Magic to be more just.  That led to the famous dinner fight with Eb and some major vampire players where she tried to recruit him.  When that didn't work, she went to his best friend Simon Pietrovich, i.e. Cowl.  His apprentice Justin DuMorne follows along.  Eventually, Maggie Sr changes her mind about things and tries to pull out, and she's only mildly successful.  The rest is difficult to make guesses at without a better understanding of motives.
Again, she was hardly the first person to do that. Kemmler did it, DuMorne did it. Likely other dark wizards. The single biggest indication is that she was fighting to make the Laws fairer and that she was plotting to do just that with dubious persons.

Also, we don't know Simon is Cowl. We don't know if Maggie and Simon ever met. It's possible but not confirmed, and Cowl's identity is also not confirmed. We do know that Simon and Maggie were associated, possibly even friends/lovers. But it's harder to make any guesses without more of Maggie's history.

As far as using Nemesis, it's been around forever from what we can surmise.  For a Maggie Sr Circle, desperate for the power to try to make the world a better place, Nemesis probably seemed like a dangerous but enticing ally.  They don't want it to succeed in destroying reality, but they need its power to make the changes they think should be made to the current order.  Nemesis is using the BC to get ahead itself with the chaos of a secret powerful faction.

It's interesting, because on the one hand we can assume with reasonable certainty that the Outsiders precede Creation. Therefore Nemesis is as old as anything. On the other hand, several characters have referred to Nemesis as "a new force". I think it's likely that Nemesis has been bound or dormant prior to the events of the series but someone unleashed it. Maybe Maggie, maybe Kemmler, maybe Justin, who knows?

Maggie would have had to be absolutely nuts to think that a mind-controlling monster from beyond reality that only seeks to unravel creation would have been a good ally let alone controllable. There are probably far less dangerous ways to shape the Council without risking the destruction of all. If anything, I think once Maggie realised how bad things were she backed out.

It's hard to figure out different motivations for the Red Court factions because most of the perspectives that we get are villain monologues.  I don't think they wanted to end the masquerade, just less interference on how they managed their food source.  Riled mortals are still stronger with their ferromancy.
In White Knight, Harry says to Murphy that should the White Council lose the war the Red Court would take control of the less kind parts of the world i.e. not first world countries - he specifically names Stalin's old stomping grounds. I think most if not all of South America, Africa, the poorer parts of Europe and the Middle East. They might not have openly declared they were vampires but I doubt they would have been as subtle as previously. Their numbers would have swelled, their power grown and they would have become might again. The White Court would tighten it's grip on the first world countries that imagined themselves more civilised than the rest of the world. Perhaps the Jade Court might even have increased it's control in Asia.

Mortals are strong with ferromancy...when united. Against a powerful foe that they don't believe in (that comes from their legends), who they don't understand or know much about...I think by the time they reacted it would be too late. Humanity is easily divided sadly. History teaches us this. We never unite for long, and never with much strength. Maybe with a common foe...but then again there probably would be those who imagine they could somehow exploit the situation for their own advantage and would undermine the efforts of the others. Plenty would continue to deny what was happening even if the vampires came out of the shadows, let alone declared themselves rulers. This is why the White Council is important. It's part of why it was established. Because before the White Council was around mortals were at the mercy of the supernatural world.

I don't think "Outer Night" is anywhere interchangeable with beyond the Outer Gates.

Quote
“Cornerhounds, servants of the Outer Night, this world is not meant for you!” I shouted at them. “I banish thee!”
That's from Peace Talks when Harry banishes the Cornerhounds (the Hounds of Tindalos). Chapter 12, page 34.

Seems pretty definitive to me.

I could easily see where Outer Night could be tied to the Outside, but there's been nothing definitively shown in the series to establish it.

There's "Out", and "Night", and twelve Lords plus the King totalling thirteen. But thirteen is also a mortal number, so it's not exclusive to outside things like the cornerhounds.
See above.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Notes on Contagion
« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2021, 12:48:51 PM »
I could easily see where Outer Night could be tied to the Outside, but there's been nothing definitively shown in the series to establish it.

There's "Out", and "Night", and twelve Lords plus the King totalling thirteen. But thirteen is also a mortal number, so it's not exclusive to outside things like the cornerhounds.
it's been awhile, so maybe not, but I thought someone linked that particular turn of phrase with something elses mythos? Like the hounds of tildalos? 🤔 I'll have to look into the origins of that again.

Offline Second Aristh

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Re: Notes on Contagion
« Reply #55 on: August 25, 2021, 08:50:14 PM »
To each their own. The list of questions for Jim grows and sadly I don't think he will answer any of them soon.
Kemmler was associated with the Thule Society though in Fistful of Warlocks, I believe. He also did have a cadre of apprentices and allies - demons, vampires, some of the nastier Fae. He was hardly alone. We've even met at least three of them (Cowl, Grevane, and the Corpsetaker) if not more potentially (two unnamed apprentices in A Fistful of Warlocks) and possibly even others yet to be revealed. I can't say for certain he started the Black Council. But he did much of what they were doing while he was alive. He was destabilising the world order, he was upsetting the balances of power, and he particularly went after the White Council - just like the Black Council. He also used the same symbol as the Denarians (the anarchy pentagram) in a Fistful of Warlocks - and considering it seems like Thorned Namshiel built that particular circle in Small Favor, and he was/is one of the likeliest Black Council candidates on the Denarians prior to Marcone bonding with him, it seems like a link.
Kemmler didn't mind underlings, but he doesn't seem like a team player.  I don't get the sense that the Black Council is as old as Kemmler, but they could have been inspired by him.


Again, she was hardly the first person to do that. Kemmler did it, DuMorne did it. Likely other dark wizards. The single biggest indication is that she was fighting to make the Laws fairer and that she was plotting to do just that with dubious persons.
I mean, DuMorne did it as part of the Black Council and after Maggie Sr, presumably.  Does he really count as another example?


Also, we don't know Simon is Cowl. We don't know if Maggie and Simon ever met. It's possible but not confirmed, and Cowl's identity is also not confirmed. We do know that Simon and Maggie were associated, possibly even friends/lovers. But it's harder to make any guesses without more of Maggie's history.
Do we know that Maggie Sr and Simon were associated independently?  The implication ran the other direction on my part.  Assume Simon=Cowl (supported by the Eb relationship circumstances and how few if any named characters fit better) then Maggie Sr. as BC founder would be aware of seemingly the BC's leader.


It's interesting, because on the one hand we can assume with reasonable certainty that the Outsiders precede Creation. Therefore Nemesis is as old as anything. On the other hand, several characters have referred to Nemesis as "a new force". I think it's likely that Nemesis has been bound or dormant prior to the events of the series but someone unleashed it. Maybe Maggie, maybe Kemmler, maybe Justin, who knows?
Who has referred to Nemesis as "new"?  The BC is a new force, but I don't think BC=Nemesis.


Maggie would have had to be absolutely nuts to think that a mind-controlling monster from beyond reality that only seeks to unravel creation would have been a good ally let alone controllable. There are probably far less dangerous ways to shape the Council without risking the destruction of all. If anything, I think once Maggie realised how bad things were she backed out.
Margaret LeFay, famous explorer of the Nevernever, is not afraid of taking incredible risks.  I agree with you on the backing out part.  My theory is that's exactly what she did after she figured out her legion of doom was going too far, and it probably was the reason she got killed.


In White Knight, Harry says to Murphy that should the White Council lose the war the Red Court would take control of the less kind parts of the world i.e. not first world countries - he specifically names Stalin's old stomping grounds. I think most if not all of South America, Africa, the poorer parts of Europe and the Middle East. They might not have openly declared they were vampires but I doubt they would have been as subtle as previously. Their numbers would have swelled, their power grown and they would have become might again. The White Court would tighten it's grip on the first world countries that imagined themselves more civilised than the rest of the world. Perhaps the Jade Court might even have increased it's control in Asia.
Absolutely, but that's not ending the masquerade either.  Vampires would want to rule if possible, but they'd rule as "humans".


Mortals are strong with ferromancy...when united. Against a powerful foe that they don't believe in (that comes from their legends), who they don't understand or know much about...I think by the time they reacted it would be too late. Humanity is easily divided sadly. History teaches us this. We never unite for long, and never with much strength. Maybe with a common foe...but then again there probably would be those who imagine they could somehow exploit the situation for their own advantage and would undermine the efforts of the others. Plenty would continue to deny what was happening even if the vampires came out of the shadows, let alone declared themselves rulers. This is why the White Council is important. It's part of why it was established. Because before the White Council was around mortals were at the mercy of the supernatural world.
Fear is a great uniting force.  I think an ended masquerade is genuinely as scary for the supernatural world as the big dogs in PT/BG think it would be.


That's from Peace Talks when Harry banishes the Cornerhounds (the Hounds of Tindalos). Chapter 12, page 34.

Seems pretty definitive to me.
See above.
Hmm, perhaps, but I'm more inclined to see that as a one-off mistake unless it happens more.
We shall not fail or falter, we shall not weaken or tire...Give us the tools, and we will finish the job.--Winston Churchill

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Notes on Contagion
« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2021, 12:32:09 AM »
Why would you assume that Eb turned Margaret down?  It simply says they fought. Almost certainly she was peddling Starborns.  And we got Harry. Jim goes out of his way to introduce the fact that Eb was well practiced in Astronomy by having him kill Ortega with a satellite.  The timing of the reveal in Changes is interesting because it was in Changes.

Offline Second Aristh

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Re: Notes on Contagion
« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2021, 01:07:23 AM »
Why would you assume that Eb turned Margaret down?  It simply says they fought. Almost certainly she was peddling Starborns.  And we got Harry. Jim goes out of his way to introduce the fact that Eb was well practiced in Astronomy by having him kill Ortega with a satellite.  The timing of the reveal in Changes is interesting because it was in Changes.
Fighting usually implies disagreement?  Producing starborn is actually an interesting proposal for the dinner.  I had something along a "want to join our secret club, Blackstaff?  You're already mostly immune to the effects of black magic" idea in mind.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Notes on Contagion
« Reply #58 on: August 26, 2021, 01:40:29 AM »
Quote
Maggie—my Maggie—asked me to a dinner. She’d just taken up with that Raith bastard. Arianna was there. Maggie didn’t warn me. They had some scheme they wanted my support on. The vampires thought I was just Maggie’s mentor, then.” He sighed. “I wanted nothing to do with it. Said she shouldn’t want it, either. And we fought.”
The interesting portion is the distinction between him as mentor and him as father. Try this conversation on for size.
"Hey dad I want to Create a Starborn child to use as a weapon."
"Have you lost your mind?" he replies, "What mother would turn her child into a weapon?"
Him there as the Black Staff representing the Council. And she was enthralled. Nobody knowing at that moment that she was his daughter.

Offline Second Aristh

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Re: Notes on Contagion
« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2021, 01:50:45 AM »
The interesting portion is the distinction between him as mentor and him as father. Try this conversation on for size.
"Hey dad I want to Create a Starborn child to use as a weapon."
"Have you lost your mind?" he replies, "What mother would turn her child into a weapon?"
Him there as the Black Staff representing the Council. And she was enthralled. Nobody knowing at that moment that she was his daughter.
Yeah, that's a definite possibility.  Maybe not even that explicit.  She might have been pushing for more information on what exactly a starborn is and how to make one.  Listens to Wind doesn't think he's got enough perspective to let Harry in on the secret, so Maggie Sr prying via her father might cause something like that.

It would also prompt the question of why Maggie Sr would be asking about starborn at all.  Being a founding BC member would fit there.
We shall not fail or falter, we shall not weaken or tire...Give us the tools, and we will finish the job.--Winston Churchill