The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Outsiders origins

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The_Sibelis:

--- Quote ---Indeed, but Jim has used a very strong Western flavor to his mythos so it's not an unreasonable connection in my view.
--- End quote ---
... Which western mythos deal's with order and chaos exactly? It's eastern in origins that I'm aware of, the closest western version I can think of is Norse.(I meant it's an interpretation of others philosophy, done wrong)Jim flavors things with what he knows best, but he did alot of research and has dipped into other cultures only when he thinks he can do them justice.
Well, when Harry thinks lasciels truest form is a blond Greek woman and Jim wojs angels might just THINK they are the original millennia old beings and I'd heavily disagree. Some of those beings might be the original, like MW, but that doesn't make everything on that scale that old necessarily. Outsiders despite being an entirely different species than others, still seem to play by particular metaphysical elements too. The rule of three, thirteen manifestations, ect. And those things that are the original being, have had some very strong outsider leanings at that, MW being a prime example, even ignoring MS saying "it's not your world", to her.. it's not like she can lie. We still have hades, a clearly inside deity, wearing outside death metal as a crown. The connections run parallel between beings, maybe at the deepest levels, but they are there..

Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on August 20, 2021, 02:17:27 AM ---... Which western mythos deal's with order and chaos exactly? It's eastern in origins that I'm aware of, the closest western version I can think of is Norse.(I meant it's an interpretation of others philosophy, done wrong)Jim flavors things with what he knows best, but he did alot of research and has dipped into other cultures only when he thinks he can do them justice.
Well, when Harry thinks lasciels truest form is a blond Greek woman and Jim wojs angels might just THINK they are the original millennia old beings and I'd heavily disagree. Some of those beings might be the original, like MW, but that doesn't make everything on that scale that old necessarily. Outsiders despite being an entirely different species than others, still seem to play by particular metaphysical elements too. The rule of three, thirteen manifestations, ect. And those things that are the original being, have had some very strong outsider leanings at that, MW being a prime example, even ignoring MS saying "it's not your world", to her.. it's not like she can lie. We still have hades, a clearly inside deity, wearing outside death metal as a crown. The connections run parallel between beings, maybe at the deepest levels, but they are there..

--- End quote ---
Well...kinda all of them? The Greeks had dual concepts of order and chaos (and the Roman versions to a lesser degree). The East-West split is a false dichotomy really anyway - where does ancient Egypt fall? Or Australia (which since settlement by the British is considered Western but the indigenous culture that preceded it surely isn't)? Irish, Welsh, Scottish, Russian, German, Scandanavian...all have strong concepts of order vs chaos.

But I was more referring to the flavor of his books i.e. Christianity. Not to mention his love of the Chronicles of Amber and his clear and stated inspiration from that series.

I think that WOJ about beings only thinking they might be millennia old beings was Jim playing devil's advocate to the questioner at the time. It certainly has been contradicted by far more recent statements recently about these beings actually existing pre-Creation of Everything. I've got a matrix post coming up that you might like which I think will help address a lot of apparent inconsistencies.

Outsiders play by those particular rules...in the universe. Who knows what rules they play by (if any) in the Outside?

Well, this is why I think the Outsiders and Angels and Gods are not as dissimilar as we think. If they all existed pre-Creation then in a sense they are all Outsiders (just like in Dungeons and Dragons, I might add). My guess is beings like Mother Winter and Ethniu are closer to the Outsiders because they miss that state of existence...they miss the power of the Chaos end of Outside. But TWG created (or is) the Order end of Outside and they wanted to be involved in his combination of Order and Chaos i.e. Creation (the multiverse). The more Outsider-like beings like Mother Winter just want to eat Reality but they don't want the buffet to disappear altogether, hence why she fights against other Outsiders. Ethniu wishes to rule etc. Angels and the more benign gods like Vadderung are more Order aligned and are also trying to protect the Inside from their frenemies like Fallen and Winter etc.

Jim said a that Harry thinks all of Creation is the multiverse and Outside - but that's all he knows about. Which Jim says might not be all there is, there ain't no more - but it's all Harry knows about. Which could suggest the Outside is more than just the elemental chaos Harry thinks it is. It could be an enormous Void containing the poles of Order and Chaos with Creation (the multiverse) in between. Maybe even multiple Creations...

I feel like the Outsiders are more than a species, they are a faction. They consume more than simply convert. Like a giant metaphysical virus. It doesn't matter what the being once was because it becomes an Outsider, it becomes corrupted. Which is how your theory about Greek gods ending up as Outsiders could work.

The_Sibelis:

--- Quote ---I think that WOJ about beings only thinking they might be millennia old beings was Jim playing devil's advocate to the questioner at the time. It certainly has been contradicted by far more recent statements recently about these beings actually existing pre-Creation of Everything. I've got a matrix post coming up that you might like which I think will help address a lot of apparent inconsistencies.
--- End quote ---
looking forward to it! (Edit: Now excuse me while I do a very crap job explaining this, I tried)It's not that I don't think they existed, but that they aren't the genuine original. Like, if we didn't know Mab was a mantle and not the original Winter Queen.. (trying to think of other times creatures contradict themselves, I'll have to remember to look next time I do a reread) if we didn't know the mechanism from our perspective it wouldn't make sense.. looking at the graces, we don't know what mechanisms control them not being simply loaned but given permanently to another (I supposite that's possible if only because Swords have received grace's apparently, something that directly changed and limited the form they took, and the idea Angels, or at least Archangels, have a mortal portion, perhaps only to give them subjective free will to act inside reality 🤔), what if one of those grace's took on a mortal body? Would the angel change or would, with Angels being described as absolute, the mortal bend into the shape of the angel? I think this is exactly what happened with the fallen before they were forced into coins. Without the coin's to limit them, once they wrapped themselves around a soul they simply consumed it entirely. Lasciels form, was probably the last human she had as a true host.
Tangential, I think putting a starborn inside a grace is exactly how you do the opposite, and change the shape of the angel to match the host.

--- Quote ---I feel like the Outsiders are more than a species, they are a faction. They consume more than simply convert. Like a giant metaphysical virus. It doesn't matter what the being once was because it becomes an Outsider, it becomes corrupted. Which is how your theory about Greek gods ending up as Outsiders could work.
--- End quote ---
not a bad comparison really. As I've mentioned elsewhere I think the outsiders come in different layers and flavors just as reality has different layers to it. Which reconsiles beings that used to exist with beings that have never existed. Iirc Lea uses a word I key to necromancy when she's talking about how the universe itself remembers, the echo's of creation or something, this is one of the scenes that made me consider where do dead god's go, and what happens to those who don't have an Afterlife, or who hosted a version of an Afterlife.

--- Quote ---Well, this is why I think the Outsiders and Angels and Gods are not as dissimilar as we think. If they all existed pre-Creation then in a sense they are all Outsiders (just like in Dungeons and Dragons, I might add). My guess is beings like Mother Winter and Ethniu are closer to the Outsiders because they miss that state of existence
--- End quote ---
yes indeed, I've begun to wonder if some of our earliest mythology didn't happen before reality existed in the DF, a bridge being found I think in Greek mythology between things before the titans and the Gods like Zeus who settled in reality.
Although, I account wether things like MW and such are considered outsiders, is because of what energy spectrum they tend to run off of. We have a running theme of things changing based on if they are creators or destroyers. Angels, wizards, ect.
These things are the balance, especially seen between mother's, if they together are Gaia for instance, then reality is based on a structure of order and chaos. Creation and destruction. Life AND death. They balance each other. And the farther away from them you get the more nuances there are in the balancing act. They are inside, and allowed to stay, because they stand on the other side of the fulcrum and prevent the outsiders from simply flipping the whole thing over. Also why DR exists I think, he could theoretically banish things outside, but instead traps in inside where it still exists in reality without being able to effect reality or actually exist inside as most of them would probably break it similar to Ferro or MW.
It's kinda ingenious really. Kinda reminds me of the planet killer bomb in battlefield earth(book, wasn't in the movie), they use complicated teleportation technology that the destruction of a planetary body would completely throw off every calculation for, so instead they liquefy the planet so it's mass is still there holding the universe together. If you can see the parallel there?
Ethniu, wasn't an outsider I don't think, she didn't feel like one anyway. But that's a different complication.

Kindler:

--- Quote from: Snark Knight on August 18, 2021, 06:53:56 PM ---But also, the Outsiders are the servants of the Old Ones ... who are still inside. The Walkers aren't the pinnacle of the lovecraftian pantheon, they're the knights of the even higher powers that were put to sleep in lieu of casting them outside.

--- End quote ---
You know, I wonder if there is an opposing equivalent to the Old Ones who are likewise "asleep" on the Outside. Like a beacon of Order amidst the Chaos, versus giant blobs of Chaos amid the Order of Inside.
I'd imagine that Archangels are probably the equivalent of the Old Ones, but I could be wrong. Mostly I just want there to be good-aligned Kaiju to fight against Cthulhu.

morriswalters:
I'm having a hard time following, but for what it's worth you can't have order without chaos or disorder. If this isn't so then how do you know which is which? The universe is ordered and is moving towards perfect disorder. From one state of entropy to another. So the White God could be taking energy from the Outside to order the Universe for his creations. It would be like plugging into your neighbors outside outlet to heat your house.

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