The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Storm Front - hidden clues
The_Sibelis:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 14, 2021, 12:18:39 AM ---1. No, I didn't expect a new dark wizard to summon an Outsider. Then again, Harry thinks Sells possibly has broken every Law of Magic. Which could well mean he did summon an Outsider that looked like a frog demon. I mostly was examining the passage where Harry releases the Toad Demon from Sells control. If you read it, you'll notice the language is incredibly similar to when he banishes Outsiders like the Cornerhounds. I grant you, it could just be the same process for both in terms of matching wills with them. But I think it's similar for a reason. I also note Harry hasn't matched minds with a demon since that scene (excluding Outsiders).
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indeed, early in the DF Jim hadn't drawn the line between outsiders and demons clearly, hadn't decided yet. I think that's because they are partially the same thing, demons just exist inside taking up that general space in reality, but have very specific things that operate close to outsiders we've seen, feeding off of fear and pain and generally existing in a negative wave length. The way they exist and manifest inside being one too, having no actual physical body, they are just manifestations of willpower.
--- Quote ---2. Quite possible. But don't you think it might still be significant? We know so little about dark magic...Harry has never discussed this part. Jim is omitting information on purpose, I think. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the importance of Harry viewing this with his Sight.
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possibly.. but I don't think they're connected to them going mad, might be trying to eat enough to become more significant creatures though? I think that might have to do with how power bases form, you bring in things that resonate with your power about yourself like an extended aura and some figure out they can grasp that aura and wield it. Thinking wiccan or Buddhist alter type beginnings.
--- Quote ---3. Possibly, possibly. I don't know if it was the lure of the dark magic itself, or whether it was some external being. Given that he had his Sight activated I find it hard to believe he couldn't detect an external influence...which leads me to conclude it was more of an internal thing. Further hints of Harry's darker nature.
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can't see things that stand behind you though? Harry's darker nature matches up to how hwwbh feels mentally I think, I've always assumed some connection there, if not from some starborn aspect then from him marking him. Harry going after Rudy was an almost total manifestation to me, and why I think the knights had agency to intervene. Something wasn't right.
--- Quote ---4-5 ?
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just no comment to be made
--- Quote ---6. Are you subscribing to the Gnostic theories for the Dresden Files? I also assume you believe Dresden is the Rough Beast that "slouches towards Bethlehem to be born"?
I am interested to why you don't think it's to do with Lucifer or Hell. Considering star born are created every 666 years (the number of the beast) and it has being going on since "time began" which we know at the beginning of time Lucifer got up to "shenanigans". Not to mention, Harry literally calls himself a possible Antichrist (a weapon of Hell). Perhaps a bit nonchalantly and not literally, yet I think it's a actually a clue considering what we learn later. Morgan also calls Harry a possible "Destroyer". I'd say it's all connected - particularly to Hell and Lucifer.
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I didn't know there were agnostic theories for the DF?
I think Lucifer was just another incarnation of the Archetype and a 666 starborn to boot. The original reasoning was a Woj referencing beings two millennia old being in the know for what coming, time running short and all that. Even now it seems what's happening is bigger than just the one starborn event. Reality restructuring or the guardians changing doesn't seem to happen every time, but part of a bigger cycle. As far as Harry being the rough beast slouching towards belthehem, absolutely. Think I've even identified the origins of the slouching, demon reaches uneven gait. If Harry can find means to where it as a mantle.. yea, he'd have the right slouch.
morriswalters:
Calling Harry the Antichrist is a very deep dive into Christian Theology.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on August 14, 2021, 02:16:36 AM ---Calling Harry the Antichrist is a very deep dive into Christian Theology.
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I mean, it's Harry's words. I am just noting that it's interesting he calls himself a possible Antichrist combined with all the other connections Harry has with Hell and the Dark Prince.
Considering the deep dive - I am going to make a separate thread for it.
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on August 14, 2021, 01:34:58 AM ---indeed, early in the DF Jim hadn't drawn the line between outsiders and demons clearly, hadn't decided yet. I think that's because they are partially the same thing, demons just exist inside taking up that general space in reality, but have very specific things that operate close to outsiders we've seen, feeding off of fear and pain and generally existing in a negative wave length. The way they exist and manifest inside being one too, having no actual physical body, they are just manifestations of willpower.
possibly.. but I don't think they're connected to them going mad, might be trying to eat enough to become more significant creatures though? I think that might have to do with how power bases form, you bring in things that resonate with your power about yourself like an extended aura and some figure out they can grasp that aura and wield it. Thinking wiccan or Buddhist alter type beginnings.
can't see things that stand behind you though? Harry's darker nature matches up to how hwwbh feels mentally I think, I've always assumed some connection there, if not from some starborn aspect then from him marking him. Harry going after Rudy was an almost total manifestation to me, and why I think the knights had agency to intervene. Something wasn't right.
just no comment to be made
I didn't know there were agnostic theories for the DF?
I think Lucifer was just another incarnation of the Archetype and a 666 starborn to boot. The original reasoning was a Woj referencing beings two millennia old being in the know for what coming, time running short and all that. Even now it seems what's happening is bigger than just the one starborn event. Reality restructuring or the guardians changing doesn't seem to happen every time, but part of a bigger cycle. As far as Harry being the rough beast slouching towards belthehem, absolutely. Think I've even identified the origins of the slouching, demon reaches uneven gait. If Harry can find means to where it as a mantle.. yea, he'd have the right slouch.
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1. Well all demons are alike in a sense. Initially just described as beasts from the Never never - spirit beings that are hostile to mortals but not necessarily evil. I think that got retconned a bit though. Outsiders of course we know now are a completely different kind of being and openly want to destroy and devour reality. But I suppose what I am getting at is that I think this was a set up for Harry's star born nature. He resists where others might struggle. I could be reading too much into this of course.
2. Well, that's a possible reason the White Council might worry about dark magic. If these beings eat enough dark magic do they become demons (or bigger demons)?
3. Ah, but if you read Storm Front carefully you will notice that the Sight is more than merely run through the context of his eyes - it encompasses smell, sound, and quite probably touch. I wonder if he hadn't had the Sight activated would he have even felt that hand? So it doesn't matter particularly that he couldn't see what was behind him as such. I agree that Harry being marked by HWWBh did something - it's a shame we don't know more about it. I don't quite follow what you mean about "a total manifestation"...do you mean Harry's darker nature (that is possibly connected to Behind) took over a bit?
To be honest, I read that particular bit as more to with Harry's possible Hell-tainted nature. Hence why the Knights were there. That's more their purpose.
4. Ah, all good.
6. Not agnostic. Just gnostic. As in Gnosticism. Serack used it to build his GUCMT if you ever saw that. It's in the Reference boards. Anyway, Gnosticism basically posits that God isn't in-fact the Creator of Everything but merely a rogue Aeon, an offshoot of the real Creator. The being we normally call God is the creator only of the physical world and the Creator of Everything resides in a higher dimension, which in order to reach you have to shed physical attachment essentially (because the physical world is impure). That's a fairly basic, lazy, and probably not all that correct explanation for it. It's worth a read at least on Wikipedia.
Anyway, now I am not sure what you mean about "an incarnation of the Archetype" unless you mean in a Michael Moorcock sense or perhaps an Incarnations of Immortality (the book series by Piers Anthony) sense? Could you elaborate more on this?
I agree that what is coming is bigger than the normal event that follows the star born being made (remember the star born being made is only one event that precedes another event - both events make up an iteration of the Cycle or the Game). But I agree, things are coming to a head in a big way more than normal. Personally, I think the potential is there for a changing of the guard and resetting the playing field each iteration, but this time has been predicted to be the big one.
That's an interesting comparison with Demonreach and the slouching beast. I'd say it's a bit literal, but it could perhaps be a slight nod. I think the slouching that Yeats was talking about was about describing the implacable nature of the beast, it's a bit lazy like a lion but that's because it's saving it's energy for the kill. And it's about to be born, it's about to "wake up".
Basil:
Always interesting at the Dresden forums....
Bible study time! Here is some Bible background on Antichrist. There are actually two Greek words (the original Gospels were in Greek) used in the New Testament that in English get turned into "antichrist" -- pseduochristos and antichristos.
First, "antichristos" is really just those who deny Jesus. These people are literally everywhere from Atheists on down to Muslims (whose doctrine denies the divinity of Jesus). Not great from a Christian perspective, but hardly harbingers of DOOOM!:
--- Quote ---John 1:7: "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."
John 2:18: "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour."
John 2:22: "Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son."
John 4:3: "and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world."
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Second, the word "pseudochristos" is the false messiahs. These people are much more rare and, arguably, much more dangerous:
--- Quote ---Mathew 24:24: "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect."
Mark 13:22: "for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect."
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Note, however, these fake messiahs can produce signs and wonders -- i.e., do magic. Building from this idea you get the Psuedochristos' final form -- the "Man of Sin" -- or transliterated from the Greek: "ho anthropos tes hamartias"
--- Quote ---2 Thessalonians 2:2-4: "not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness— the son of destruction— is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.…"
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So this isn't just a pseudochristos, but THE Pseudochristos. The Man of Sin is a rebel and a destroyer, an agent of chaos whose hubris and arrogance sets himself above God. That's what Harry is telling us he could end up being. And, given the amount of personal power at his disposal .... not an unrealizable goal.
Yuillegan:
Basil, you must have entered my brain! I just wrote a whole thing about this. I particularly like the stuff about sign and wonders.
I might bring your comment over to my new thread (as a duplicate) because I think it adds excellent information to the discussion.
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