The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Notes on Contagion
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Second Aristh on August 10, 2021, 07:10:08 AM ---Could they be Nemesis possessed, sure. Were they? I really doubt it. They're not well placed enough to be worth Nemesis's resources. I don't think it would have expended the energy to add them to its collection of possessable options.
Not necessarily exclusive, but more likely than not. The BC and Nemesis both think they're using each other to get ahead. I'm convinced that Maggie Sr is the founder of the Black Council and tried to get out.
I disagree. A prolonged war means two Accorded nations effectively take each other out, meaning less defenders for reality and a void to fill that's twice as wide. More chaos for Nemesis to take advantage of at the end of the day. A Red Court victory would have humanity worse off, but the Red Court still wants to keep up the masquerade for humanity and to avoid Empty Night.
Cowl/Mavra picked Bianca as their vector to start trouble, hence Chicago. She was conveniently near a White Council wizard they had some interest in already (he killed his first handler, Justin; plus he's a starborn--a good resource for people trying to swindle outsiders). Harry could be tested, recruited, or used as leverage to start the wizard-vampire war. All good reasons to start preparations in Chicago.
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Unless those mortals were well placed - in reference to Harry. Each of them are part of significant events in his life. It could well be that Nemesis is far more focussed on Harry than we realise.
It's certainly possible Maggie was the founder. I personally think it's actually older and Kemmler founded it. But there's no way to know really until we have more information about the Black Council. Btw, do we know for sure that the Black Council think they're using Nemesis? I don't remember any conversation with a confirmed member of this still-unconfirmed organisation. We only have Harry's speculation on the whole thing. We don't have anyone saying "Hey, join our super friends team called "the Black Council" - we have great dental!". I think we have to be careful about assuming anything about the Black Council.
Did the Red Court want to avoid Empty Night? Were the ideals of the whole of the Court the same as the ideas of their most dominant faction? Did the leadership of the Court really say what they wanted?
I don't think we have any real answers to those questions. But we do know that Arianna represented a powerful faction at odds with the Red King. We know that there was at least one Lord of the Outer Night involved who wished to rule the whole Red Court.
Considering the Red Court leaders called themselves the Lords of the "Outer Night" which has been used interchangeably in the series with Outside...there is a clear connection between the two. Who says they weren't merely the agents of the Outside on Earth? The goals of the Red Court were largely unknown beyond feeding, domination and slaughter. Let alone the goals of the Red King, or whatever internal faction Arianna was a part of etc.
We just don't know if the Red Court really wanted the Masquerade to continue. In point of fact, part of the reason to remove the Wizards was to begin a free-for-all hunting season on humanity.
I'll probably never get the Chicago reasons unless Jim bothers to go deeper than "this is where my writing teacher told me to set it". He could have a reason like "this is the prophesized location of the final battle etc." or something to that effect. But he either is keeping that from us deliberately or he never really thought about it and might choose to come up with it later, or might not. I would prefer it as it grates on my mind. Honestly, you could solve the problem with a single piece of information.
Second Aristh:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 23, 2021, 01:30:19 AM ---Unless those mortals were well placed - in reference to Harry. Each of them are part of significant events in his life. It could well be that Nemesis is far more focussed on Harry than we realise.
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It's possible, but I don't think it's the most likely solution. Not without more compelling evidence.
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 23, 2021, 01:30:19 AM ---It's certainly possible Maggie was the founder. I personally think it's actually older and Kemmler founded it. But there's no way to know really until we have more information about the Black Council. Btw, do we know for sure that the Black Council think they're using Nemesis? I don't remember any conversation with a confirmed member of this still-unconfirmed organisation. We only have Harry's speculation on the whole thing. We don't have anyone saying "Hey, join our super friends team called "the Black Council" - we have great dental!". I think we have to be careful about assuming anything about the Black Council.
--- End quote ---
It's speculation, but it fits what we know so far about Maggie Sr's associates. Kemmler is possible, but he strikes me as more of a lone megalomaniac than the guy to build a legion of doom.
I like Maggie Sr for the Circle founder because we know that she was hopping all around the world befriending some tough customers. We also know from Luccio she was interested in changing the Laws of Magic to be more just. That led to the famous dinner fight with Eb and some major vampire players where she tried to recruit him. When that didn't work, she went to his best friend Simon Pietrovich, i.e. Cowl. His apprentice Justin DuMorne follows along. Eventually, Maggie Sr changes her mind about things and tries to pull out, and she's only mildly successful. The rest is difficult to make guesses at without a better understanding of motives.
As far as using Nemesis, it's been around forever from what we can surmise. For a Maggie Sr Circle, desperate for the power to try to make the world a better place, Nemesis probably seemed like a dangerous but enticing ally. They don't want it to succeed in destroying reality, but they need its power to make the changes they think should be made to the current order. Nemesis is using the BC to get ahead itself with the chaos of a secret powerful faction.
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 23, 2021, 01:30:19 AM ---Did the Red Court want to avoid Empty Night? Were the ideals of the whole of the Court the same as the ideas of their most dominant faction? Did the leadership of the Court really say what they wanted?
I don't think we have any real answers to those questions. But we do know that Arianna represented a powerful faction at odds with the Red King. We know that there was at least one Lord of the Outer Night involved who wished to rule the whole Red Court.
Considering the Red Court leaders called themselves the Lords of the "Outer Night" which has been used interchangeably in the series with Outside...there is a clear connection between the two. Who says they weren't merely the agents of the Outside on Earth? The goals of the Red Court were largely unknown beyond feeding, domination and slaughter. Let alone the goals of the Red King, or whatever internal faction Arianna was a part of etc.
We just don't know if the Red Court really wanted the Masquerade to continue. In point of fact, part of the reason to remove the Wizards was to begin a free-for-all hunting season on humanity.
--- End quote ---
I don't think "Outer Night" is anywhere interchangeable with beyond the Outer Gates.
It's hard to figure out different motivations for the Red Court factions because most of the perspectives that we get are villain monologues. I don't think they wanted to end the masquerade, just less interference on how they managed their food source. Riled mortals are still stronger with their ferromancy.
Griffyn612:
I could easily see where Outer Night could be tied to the Outside, but there's been nothing definitively shown in the series to establish it.
There's "Out", and "Night", and twelve Lords plus the King totalling thirteen. But thirteen is also a mortal number, so it's not exclusive to outside things like the cornerhounds.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Second Aristh on August 23, 2021, 09:49:28 PM ---It's possible, but I don't think it's the most likely solution. Not without more compelling evidence.
--- End quote ---
To each their own. The list of questions for Jim grows and sadly I don't think he will answer any of them soon.
--- Quote from: Second Aristh on August 23, 2021, 09:49:28 PM ---It's speculation, but it fits what we know so far about Maggie Sr's associates. Kemmler is possible, but he strikes me as more of a lone megalomaniac than the guy to build a legion of doom.
--- End quote ---
Kemmler was associated with the Thule Society though in Fistful of Warlocks, I believe. He also did have a cadre of apprentices and allies - demons, vampires, some of the nastier Fae. He was hardly alone. We've even met at least three of them (Cowl, Grevane, and the Corpsetaker) if not more potentially (two unnamed apprentices in A Fistful of Warlocks) and possibly even others yet to be revealed. I can't say for certain he started the Black Council. But he did much of what they were doing while he was alive. He was destabilising the world order, he was upsetting the balances of power, and he particularly went after the White Council - just like the Black Council. He also used the same symbol as the Denarians (the anarchy pentagram) in a Fistful of Warlocks - and considering it seems like Thorned Namshiel built that particular circle in Small Favor, and he was/is one of the likeliest Black Council candidates on the Denarians prior to Marcone bonding with him, it seems like a link.
--- Quote from: Second Aristh on August 23, 2021, 09:49:28 PM ---I like Maggie Sr for the Circle founder because we know that she was hopping all around the world befriending some tough customers. We also know from Luccio she was interested in changing the Laws of Magic to be more just. That led to the famous dinner fight with Eb and some major vampire players where she tried to recruit him. When that didn't work, she went to his best friend Simon Pietrovich, i.e. Cowl. His apprentice Justin DuMorne follows along. Eventually, Maggie Sr changes her mind about things and tries to pull out, and she's only mildly successful. The rest is difficult to make guesses at without a better understanding of motives.
--- End quote ---
Again, she was hardly the first person to do that. Kemmler did it, DuMorne did it. Likely other dark wizards. The single biggest indication is that she was fighting to make the Laws fairer and that she was plotting to do just that with dubious persons.
Also, we don't know Simon is Cowl. We don't know if Maggie and Simon ever met. It's possible but not confirmed, and Cowl's identity is also not confirmed. We do know that Simon and Maggie were associated, possibly even friends/lovers. But it's harder to make any guesses without more of Maggie's history.
--- Quote from: Second Aristh on August 23, 2021, 09:49:28 PM ---As far as using Nemesis, it's been around forever from what we can surmise. For a Maggie Sr Circle, desperate for the power to try to make the world a better place, Nemesis probably seemed like a dangerous but enticing ally. They don't want it to succeed in destroying reality, but they need its power to make the changes they think should be made to the current order. Nemesis is using the BC to get ahead itself with the chaos of a secret powerful faction.
--- End quote ---
It's interesting, because on the one hand we can assume with reasonable certainty that the Outsiders precede Creation. Therefore Nemesis is as old as anything. On the other hand, several characters have referred to Nemesis as "a new force". I think it's likely that Nemesis has been bound or dormant prior to the events of the series but someone unleashed it. Maybe Maggie, maybe Kemmler, maybe Justin, who knows?
Maggie would have had to be absolutely nuts to think that a mind-controlling monster from beyond reality that only seeks to unravel creation would have been a good ally let alone controllable. There are probably far less dangerous ways to shape the Council without risking the destruction of all. If anything, I think once Maggie realised how bad things were she backed out.
--- Quote from: Second Aristh on August 23, 2021, 09:49:28 PM ---It's hard to figure out different motivations for the Red Court factions because most of the perspectives that we get are villain monologues. I don't think they wanted to end the masquerade, just less interference on how they managed their food source. Riled mortals are still stronger with their ferromancy.
--- End quote ---
In White Knight, Harry says to Murphy that should the White Council lose the war the Red Court would take control of the less kind parts of the world i.e. not first world countries - he specifically names Stalin's old stomping grounds. I think most if not all of South America, Africa, the poorer parts of Europe and the Middle East. They might not have openly declared they were vampires but I doubt they would have been as subtle as previously. Their numbers would have swelled, their power grown and they would have become might again. The White Court would tighten it's grip on the first world countries that imagined themselves more civilised than the rest of the world. Perhaps the Jade Court might even have increased it's control in Asia.
Mortals are strong with ferromancy...when united. Against a powerful foe that they don't believe in (that comes from their legends), who they don't understand or know much about...I think by the time they reacted it would be too late. Humanity is easily divided sadly. History teaches us this. We never unite for long, and never with much strength. Maybe with a common foe...but then again there probably would be those who imagine they could somehow exploit the situation for their own advantage and would undermine the efforts of the others. Plenty would continue to deny what was happening even if the vampires came out of the shadows, let alone declared themselves rulers. This is why the White Council is important. It's part of why it was established. Because before the White Council was around mortals were at the mercy of the supernatural world.
--- Quote from: Second Aristh on August 23, 2021, 09:49:28 PM ---I don't think "Outer Night" is anywhere interchangeable with beyond the Outer Gates.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---“Cornerhounds, servants of the Outer Night, this world is not meant for you!” I shouted at them. “I banish thee!”
--- End quote ---
That's from Peace Talks when Harry banishes the Cornerhounds (the Hounds of Tindalos). Chapter 12, page 34.
Seems pretty definitive to me.
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on August 24, 2021, 01:15:16 AM ---I could easily see where Outer Night could be tied to the Outside, but there's been nothing definitively shown in the series to establish it.
There's "Out", and "Night", and twelve Lords plus the King totalling thirteen. But thirteen is also a mortal number, so it's not exclusive to outside things like the cornerhounds.
--- End quote ---
See above.
The_Sibelis:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on August 24, 2021, 01:15:16 AM ---I could easily see where Outer Night could be tied to the Outside, but there's been nothing definitively shown in the series to establish it.
There's "Out", and "Night", and twelve Lords plus the King totalling thirteen. But thirteen is also a mortal number, so it's not exclusive to outside things like the cornerhounds.
--- End quote ---
it's been awhile, so maybe not, but I thought someone linked that particular turn of phrase with something elses mythos? Like the hounds of tildalos? 🤔 I'll have to look into the origins of that again.
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