The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Notes on Contagion
The_Sibelis:
Very true, and when he pressed for a name it didn't just say "Nemesis" as it's true name. Perhaps it's a mask that it or they also fit into, but not the individual mask.. ohh 😯 yea, just like Hecate might have? If they are the Adversary specifically of the courts then they may be arranged in the same in mirror of them. Course, I expect that mirror to be twisted a bit.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on August 09, 2021, 04:01:33 AM ---Yeah, Mira quoted it on the previous page of the thread.
I guess it could be argued that they all claim the name, or Beside was playing Sidhe-like games and playing into misconceptions about his nature.
After all, "Hoss I am called" is not the same as "My name is Hoss".
--- End quote ---
Or in general I am called Nemesis, like if I were to ask you and you answered, "I am Human." Yes, that is true, but what is your name? You can answer, " I am Griffyn612." Which is also true, but it is a screen name.. So I could ask it again and this time you answered your actual name. Names do have power as Harry drilled into our heads early on when he summoned Chauncy. Chauncy wanted to bargain information for Harry's full name and as much as he wanted information, Harry wouldn't go all the way with it. He even has stated at times that how a true name is pronounced even makes a difference. So obviously Nemesis wasn't going to be tricked into giving Harry any power over him.
The_Sibelis:
They aren't tricked into it, just overpowered. Giving harry a name they are vulnerable against is exactly what they do when he calls them out.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Second Aristh on August 06, 2021, 10:36:19 PM ---Ah, I should have guessed.
I believe that Aurora was certainly Nemesis controlled (since her fae nature prevents most other options), but not Sells/Denton/Kravos. Lily isn't convincing for me; we already know she's been lied to. I put those three at the Black Council's feet (also, for clarity, let's be specific about Black Council/Circle vs Black Court). They are setting the stage for the Circle/Nemesis's first big move together (at least in a while) in GP targeting Lea and starting the wizard-vampire war. They were doing things Nemesis liked, but I don't think Nemesis had the ability to jump into any of those three like he could for Cat Sith, for example.
Justine is substantially different than any of the three early mortal villains. She's not just a random mook. She's a hook into both the White Court royalty (in two ways) and into the starborn that's been ruining so many things for Nemesis's BC buddies lately.
I'd also push back against Justin being Nemesis. He's BC through and through. (Fun fact, Justin was Simon Pietrovich's apprentice).
I'd say that Ariana was more blinded by getting revenge on Harry's family than her ambition, but that's not the point. By removing the liability that is the Red King, she's strengthening the Red Court overall. That's not destabilizing. It's like Harry slamming his arm back into socket, painful at first, but quickly better. Destroying the White Council would be stabilizing for the Red Court as well. No more wizards killing them in a long war. Ariana's actions are against the chaos that Nemesis prefers in order to bring about Empty Night. Prolonging the war is what's good for Nemesis, not the RC winning.
Agreed. I would imagine that the heart curse is an original Red Court/Mayan pantheon special that the BC came across (which makes a nice contribution for a Cowl=Simon Pietrovich vampire expert in the BC). It hadn't been used in forever (Odin says over a millennium for Power on the Changes scale), so send it off to Chicago with a nobody to test before any enemies know you're plotting, hence Sells. That way, they can figure out its requirements and limitations while simultaneously setting the stage for their big move in GP. Later, it's an insurance policy for the WC getting the upper hand against the RC in order to prolong the war.
Yeah, I was mostly pointing out the process where Agent Smith took over susceptible targets. We agree that Nemesis and Agent Smith are distinct philosophically.
--- End quote ---
I guess we will find out more later about the first few mortals. Another good question for a Jim AMA or something. I don't agree though that Nemesis didn't have the ability to possess Sells, Denton or Kravos. If it can possess Justine, why not other mortals? I get she is a more important target, but fundamentally she is as human as the rest. So the barrier to entry shouldn't be different.
Well, see being Black Council and being Nemesis-infected and/or possessed are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Justin could have been Black Council who got infected, or maybe that's part of being on the Black Council, or perhaps he got infected before forming/joining the Black Council.
Certainly, Arianna believed the Red King was a liability. And yes, his junkie behaviour is concerning (interesting that the other Black Council catpaw, the Fomor, are have someone with junkie-like behaviour - Corb). However, had Arianna completed her coup perhaps she would have kicked off a civil war and the entire Red Court made vulnerable. It's not at all certain that the other Lords would have accepted one of their own taking over their sire. Not to mention, I suspect some of them would have preferred to rule than whoever Arianna was allied with. The Red Court wouldn't have necessarily won even if the removing the Red King had united them. But even if it had, destroying the White Council or strengthening the Red Court would only have furthered Nemesis' aims. With no White Council, who would stop the agents of destruction? Who would protect humanity and stop the warlocks arising and the Outer Gates being opened? The Red Court united would have been worse for humanity and the world would have been darker for it, particularly without the White Council to stop them. Nemesis wants more darkness and chaos. That's what I was getting at. In that environment, the return of the Outsiders is far more likely.
I think the heart-ripping curse was not in Chicago by accident. I can't prove it but it almost certainly was linked to Harry being there. It doesn't make sense to test it there otherwise.
Yeah, Nemesis is almost a combination of both regular Agents and Agent Smith, at least in it's operation. I wouldn't be surprised if it partly inspired Jim.
Second Aristh:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 10, 2021, 02:16:52 AM ---I guess we will find out more later about the first few mortals. Another good question for a Jim AMA or something. I don't agree though that Nemesis didn't have the ability to possess Sells, Denton or Kravos. If it can possess Justine, why not other mortals? I get she is a more important target, but fundamentally she is as human as the rest. So the barrier to entry shouldn't be different.
--- End quote ---
Could they be Nemesis possessed, sure. Were they? I really doubt it. They're not well placed enough to be worth Nemesis's resources. I don't think it would have expended the energy to add them to its collection of possessable options.
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 10, 2021, 02:16:52 AM ---Well, see being Black Council and being Nemesis-infected and/or possessed are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Justin could have been Black Council who got infected, or maybe that's part of being on the Black Council, or perhaps he got infected before forming/joining the Black Council.
--- End quote ---
Not necessarily exclusive, but more likely than not. The BC and Nemesis both think they're using each other to get ahead. I'm convinced that Maggie Sr is the founder of the Black Council and tried to get out.
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 10, 2021, 02:16:52 AM ---Certainly, Arianna believed the Red King was a liability. And yes, his junkie behaviour is concerning (interesting that the other Black Council catpaw, the Fomor, are have someone with junkie-like behaviour - Corb). However, had Arianna completed her coup perhaps she would have kicked off a civil war and the entire Red Court made vulnerable. It's not at all certain that the other Lords would have accepted one of their own taking over their sire. Not to mention, I suspect some of them would have preferred to rule than whoever Arianna was allied with. The Red Court wouldn't have necessarily won even if the removing the Red King had united them. But even if it had, destroying the White Council or strengthening the Red Court would only have furthered Nemesis' aims. With no White Council, who would stop the agents of destruction? Who would protect humanity and stop the warlocks arising and the Outer Gates being opened? The Red Court united would have been worse for humanity and the world would have been darker for it, particularly without the White Council to stop them. Nemesis wants more darkness and chaos. That's what I was getting at. In that environment, the return of the Outsiders is far more likely.
--- End quote ---
I disagree. A prolonged war means two Accorded nations effectively take each other out, meaning less defenders for reality and a void to fill that's twice as wide. More chaos for Nemesis to take advantage of at the end of the day. A Red Court victory would have humanity worse off, but the Red Court still wants to keep up the masquerade for humanity and to avoid Empty Night.
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 10, 2021, 02:16:52 AM ---I think the heart-ripping curse was not in Chicago by accident. I can't prove it but it almost certainly was linked to Harry being there. It doesn't make sense to test it there otherwise.
Yeah, Nemesis is almost a combination of both regular Agents and Agent Smith, at least in it's operation. I wouldn't be surprised if it partly inspired Jim.
--- End quote ---
Cowl/Mavra picked Bianca as their vector to start trouble, hence Chicago. She was conveniently near a White Council wizard they had some interest in already (he killed his first handler, Justin; plus he's a starborn--a good resource for people trying to swindle outsiders). Harry could be tested, recruited, or used as leverage to start the wizard-vampire war. All good reasons to start preparations in Chicago.
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