The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Notes on Contagion
morriswalters:
Has Nemesis been on the page? How many names does it have? Titania says
--- Quote ---“Nemesis,” she breathed. “Speak it carefully—or it may hear you.”
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 315). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
--- End quote ---
She doesn't say Before or Beside. I haven't gone back to check but in two cases Jim has forced the Walkers to say their names and what they do.
--- Quote ---Then she exhaled in a slow, utterly sensual voice, “I am the doubt that wards away sleep. I am the flaw that corrupts, the infected wound, the false fork in the trail. I am the gnawer, the worm in the book, the maggot that burrows in the mind’s eye.” She shuddered in bizarre ecstasy and panted, in a frantic whisper, “I am He Who Walks Beside.”
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 360). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---Lightning burned far back in its eyes, and it spoke in the voice of gale winds. I AM GATEBREAKER, HARBINGER! I AM FEARGIVER, HOPESLAYER! I AM HE-WHO-WALKS-BEFORE! For a second, I just stood there, staring up at the sky, shocked. Hell’s bells. It worked. The thing spoke, and as it did, I knew, I knew what it was, as if I’d been given a snapshot of its core identity, its quintessential self.
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (pp. 428-429). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
--- End quote ---
This the only point where Harry specifically calls out the possessed as the Adversary/
--- Quote ---Then it lifted its head and the motion was subtly wrong, something that simply didn’t have the grace I’d seen in the elder malk before. It faced me for a moment and then it spoke, its voice absent of anything like personality. “A pity. I would have been more useful to them as an active, covert asset.” I shuddered at the utter absence in that voice. I wasn’t talking to Sith anymore. I was speaking with the adversary.
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 439). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
--- End quote ---
And that phrasing is...odd.
Mira:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on August 06, 2021, 12:19:40 PM ---Has Nemesis been on the page? How many names does it have? Titania says She doesn't say Before or Beside. I haven't gone back to check but in two cases Jim has forced the Walkers to say their names and what they do.This the only point where Harry specifically calls out the possessed as the Adversary/And that phrasing is...odd.
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Yes, and didn't Mab say not to even say the name "Nemesis" that often it give it power. Yes, Listens to Wind also said that about the Skin Walker, but I believe Mab said it as well. So are they all Nemesis? If so Harry has known it by at least one of it's names most of his life.
The_Sibelis:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on August 06, 2021, 12:12:19 AM ---So tell me I'm understanding your current hypothesis:
* The Greek goddess Nemesis, daughter of Nyx and Erebus, was an Outsider all along. She got along well with native Insider gods and goddesses, had festivals and temples and a generally positive standing with the Greek populace.
* For some reason not said in mythology, Nemesis fell out of favor with humans and gods alike, and decided to become their enemy. She changed her nature from avatar of implacable justice to a shadowy spymaster that seeks to destroy all of reality and bring down everyone.
--- End quote ---
ok let's see if I can organize this right...
1The Greek Goddess Nemesis was either thrown out because she was always Beside and her nature inside reality didn't fit the new order after TWC.
2 OR the Greek goddess Nemesis existed and at some point was directly corrupted by Beside so much so that the mask of Nemesis is now just an aspect of Beside through which she can act.
3 tangential idea, They subsequently destroyed/changed the nature of 'Nemesis' into something else, i.e. into the stone table. BUT, if Nemesis was an original being like say, Ethniu. Something that exists in an of itself or at a higher level form, something with Soul, the take the idea according to recent Woj on wamp feeding (always have the wamps have clues) talking about consuming souls and how all soul seeks it's original state making the small bits they actually take meaningless and mash that fact together with the idea Nemesis used to have a soul, and it's very much targeting the courts because they have pieces that match, things in it she can mirror because they were made from her aspects.
--- Quote --- Is that what you're saying? Or am I misunderstanding?
EDIT: And to clarify, I'm just looking to confirm so I can approach theory crafting for it.
I.E. if you were saying Beside is Nemesis, then one might say Before is Oizys, and Behind is Moros.
Oizys, being one of Nemesis's sisters, who was the personification of misery/anxiety/depression, like we've seen Before's mental whammy cause. And Moros, being one of Nemesis's brothers, who was the personification of a mortal's impending doom, a hateful spirit that allowed mortals to foresee their death, much like how Behind taunted Harry.
All of which are children of Nyx (Night) and Erebus (Darkness), which, when combined, is basically Dark Night (presumably like a sky empty of stars).
There are other siblings, too, so there may be better fits, but those are the ones I found quickly.
EDIT 2:
Looking at the other siblings, I'd say Apate, the personification of deceit, would be a better fit for Beside than Nemesis.
Or Eris, goddess of stryfe and discord.
Or Dolos, Apate's male counterpart of deceit and treachery.
Or Hybris, goddess of insolence, violence, and outrageous behaviour.
The Moroi, the three weavers associated with the Mothers, were also siblings, being daughters of Nyx.
--- End quote ---
that.. that could be quite accurate. Even if it's not one for one, the general idea seems present in the DF. Though Jim mashes mythos together sometimes so it's hard to pinpoint one being when that person in the DF might literally be multiple beings of similar nature in multiple mythos.
Second Aristh:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 06, 2021, 06:16:41 AM ---SA (I'm abbreviating your handle), I believe Lily confirms Sells, Denton, Kravos and Aurora. Why waste Nemesis on Justine? She's just a low-level human. I suspect Justin was too for that matter. I think all these apparent nobody humans are not chosen randomly, but for their specific connection to Harry. Why pick on people just in Chicago? Why pick such weak hosts? I do believe Nemesis also is trying to create more chaos in the world, but the hosts are not totally at random. It could be as simple as the initial host was connected to Harry and Chicago, and so all the others are just the hosts that were available. It could also be much more specific and each host was chosen for how it would affect certain things. I believe that is more likely, considering how powerful Outsiders are and Walkers in particular.
--- End quote ---
Ah, I should have guessed.
I believe that Aurora was certainly Nemesis controlled (since her fae nature prevents most other options), but not Sells/Denton/Kravos. Lily isn't convincing for me; we already know she's been lied to. I put those three at the Black Council's feet (also, for clarity, let's be specific about Black Council/Circle vs Black Court). They are setting the stage for the Circle/Nemesis's first big move together (at least in a while) in GP targeting Lea and starting the wizard-vampire war. They were doing things Nemesis liked, but I don't think Nemesis had the ability to jump into any of those three like he could for Cat Sith, for example.
Justine is substantially different than any of the three early mortal villains. She's not just a random mook. She's a hook into both the White Court royalty (in two ways) and into the starborn that's been ruining so many things for Nemesis's BC buddies lately.
I'd also push back against Justin being Nemesis. He's BC through and through. (Fun fact, Justin was Simon Pietrovich's apprentice).
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 06, 2021, 06:16:41 AM ---I agree though there is a difference between Nemesis infected villains, Black Court agents and those manipulated by them, and other nasty monsters. I think Arianna WAS destabilising the Red Court, she just didn't realise it. Think back to Maeve. So sure she was winning her own game against Mab - neither knowing nor caring for the repercussions. Maeve was almost deluded into believing she would rule instead of Mab but really she would have perished along with the rest. I think Arianna was blinded to her ambitions of going to the Lords of the Outer Night...never realising that the end result of her manipulations was going to be either the destruction of the Red Court or the Wizards. Neither matters to Nemesis...it just wants Empty Night. Remember how the it says everything that happened in Battle Ground was just an act of faith in "Empty Night"?
--- End quote ---
I'd say that Ariana was more blinded by getting revenge on Harry's family than her ambition, but that's not the point. By removing the liability that is the Red King, she's strengthening the Red Court overall. That's not destabilizing. It's like Harry slamming his arm back into socket, painful at first, but quickly better. Destroying the White Council would be stabilizing for the Red Court as well. No more wizards killing them in a long war. Ariana's actions are against the chaos that Nemesis prefers in order to bring about Empty Night. Prolonging the war is what's good for Nemesis, not the RC winning.
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 06, 2021, 06:16:41 AM ---Well, it's almost certain whoever gave the that curse to Sells (some really advanced dark magic, blood magic) also either taught it to the Red Court, or borrowed it from them to pass on. We've always assumed Black Court...but Nemesis could be the link as well. I don't know that Sells could have powered the curse past one individual.
--- End quote ---
Agreed. I would imagine that the heart curse is an original Red Court/Mayan pantheon special that the BC came across (which makes a nice contribution for a Cowl=Simon Pietrovich vampire expert in the BC). It hadn't been used in forever (Odin says over a millennium for Power on the Changes scale), so send it off to Chicago with a nobody to test before any enemies know you're plotting, hence Sells. That way, they can figure out its requirements and limitations while simultaneously setting the stage for their big move in GP. Later, it's an insurance policy for the WC getting the upper hand against the RC in order to prolong the war.
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 06, 2021, 06:16:41 AM ---You know, I first thought of Agent Smith but then the more I thought about it the less it works. Agent Smith wanted to "perfect" everything. He hated all the humans, and then all the programs as well. He almost grew too powerful for his masters to control (at least, that's one interpretation). But Smith ended up taking over every program in the Matrix. He couldn't stop, becoming a self-replicating virus. Smith wasn't just one thing, it was a legion by the end. Which I think was deliberate by the Wachowskis. Anyway, Nemesis doesn't seem to take everything over or be a legion, as such. It more seems like a being that just enjoys destroying things, and just take's over it's host when it feels the need to. That's why I thought of it more of the regular Agents than Smith. Still though, anything is possible.
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Yeah, I was mostly pointing out the process where Agent Smith took over susceptible targets. We agree that Nemesis and Agent Smith are distinct philosophically.
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 06, 2021, 03:01:29 PM ---Yes, and didn't Mab say not to even say the name "Nemesis" that often it give it power. Yes, Listens to Wind also said that about the Skin Walker, but I believe Mab said it as well. So are they all Nemesis? If so Harry has known it by at least one of it's names most of his life.
--- End quote ---
I have no idea. Jim is all over the map. But if he gets the proper names out of them then my inclination would be for them to be who they say they are. Somebody else upstream is Nemesis. Ruler to their Knights.
If Justine was taken on the page then it could have happened at Bianca's. It would help explain why she didn't die when Thomas fed on her in Blood Rites. If it happened off the page it probably occurred after the feeding and Nemesis stepped in to keep her alive. I vote for the second option. However by White Knight you have to consider that the left hand and the right hand don't speak. This because you have someone trying to decapitate the Whites while someone else is insinuated into the inner fold.
So here's my take. The Walkers are ground troops and Beside is the carrier. He opens the door. This is implied by his true name. In Maeve and Aurora's case Beside took what was there and made it more. He never needed to control. It worked too well for Lea and she got nabbed by Mab. It worked on Cat Sith until Harry showed him the man behind the curtain. Then Nemesis entered through the door Beside created and wiped him clean.
Justine was a special case. Her personality was mostly gone and she was like an empty furnished house, Nemesis moved in and started wearing her clothes.
The only person who could have gotten to Aurora that we've met is Elaine Mallory. She may have been Cowls tool for attacking Summer. If Justine was killed by Harry or a Walker then Elaine may have been spirited away by Cowl, which would make her Kumori.
This if you accept my thesis that the books through Cold Days are about an attack on the Courts. Primarily Winter.
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