The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
What will Eb do?
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: Avernite on August 07, 2021, 08:47:46 PM ---If he is a Sumerian character, I think we can't blame the Pyramids on him. The pyramids predate the fall of Sumeria as a civilization. Though, I suppose he could have left Sumeria and just have given them writing, then moving to Egypt to go Pyramid-building.
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Ziusudra ruled around 2900 BC. He was the last king before the Flood, not the last king.
Gilgamesh visited an already immortal Ziusudra around 2700 BC.
The great pyramids were created no earlier than 2550 BC.
That means Ziusudra had a few hundred years to grow bored with immortality before he set out to do things, and could have been in Cairo in time for the pyramids. I'm not saying he would have been responsible, but I could see an immortal like that being a guiding hand for knowledge and education, and being there for important events.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Second Aristh on August 07, 2021, 09:04:15 PM ---His protection wouldn't have worked against the satellite directly (Harry's keys, for example, worked as intended), but the problem is targeting. I don't think a tracking spell would have had anything to grasp on Papa Raith, and it's not worth the risk to try without knowing it's going to hit. Other physical assaults are probably going to be similarly difficult for whatever reason.
Three hundred plus instead of 150 for Lara, but yeah the timing is a bit off. She's probably closer to Eb's age than Luccio's. Probably bias of the "next generation of leadership" getting me of thinking they were more contemporary. Could be a few earlier sons which he culled or daughters whampire politics got combined with poor whampire fertility for why Lara's the eldest now.
I think you're undervaluing the whampire mojo factor for someone like Grey. Doesn't matter how hard you can hit if you've been psychically stunned. Maybe Grey can withstand something like that and still fight, but I don't think it's a foolproof strategy.
After BG, I'm actually thinking that Ramirez is a better candidate for next generation Blackstaff. The White Council would fight Harry's possession of it, and it would be too close to Mother Winter in his hands. Everybody likes Carlos, though. Plus, Harry admitted that he was becoming a better wizard, at least for the subtle stuff.
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I agree that targeting would be an issue, but not an insurmountable one. There are other ways of learning a location than locking on to a target with a tracking spell. Even mundane means. It's more the apparent lack of effort or result that bothers me. It seems at odds with the implacable, highly dangerous, hot-head that is Ebenezar.
Yeah, I still wonder about that weird Lara and Eb romance theory. They certainly have a weird history that we don't know about. I wouldn't put anything like that past Jim - consider Nicodemus and his daughter's relationship. If that was fine for the story, just about anything's on the table. Yes, I think it makes sense that many of the previous siblings would have died or been culled. Seems odd though to allow your kin to get slaughtered so much considering they are meant to continue the family line. We know Lord Raith often just kills his sons. But allowing his daughters to die, or killing them off occasionally seems odd. The fact that his "eldest" daughter is merely 300 or so when he himself is roughly 2000 years old...something doesn't add up.
The White Court's psychic attack is powerful, I grant you. But Grey is the scion of a mortal and an immortal. Uriel took notice of him. I can't see Lord Raith laying out such a powerful being with a single move. But true enough, we just don't know. Something to ask Jim sometime. I find it interesting though that White Court vampires don't often use it on powerful beings. None of them tried it on the Naagloshii, or on the Denarians, or the Fomor (the leaders, not the hybrid warriors). Seems like they don't just throw it around at everything. We've never even seen it tried on another vampire. Which makes me wonder if it's really only effective on mortals or other White Court vampires (and maybe some Faeries). In any case, if Grey were concerned about that sort of thing (and he would have fought the White Court before), he would adjust his methods presumably. Considering how easy it was for the Naagloshii to carve them up whole sale, I can't imagine he would have too much trouble. Sure, he isn't as powerful as Shagnasty but still.
You see, I had Ramirez picked for the eventual Merlin. Assuming the White Council survives/is reborn. He follows the rules, is well respected, values chain of command, has proven himself in the field etc. He doesn't have the right mentality to be the Blackstaff. It's about being able to make the right calls and live with the consequences. It's about being able to get your hands dirty so others don't have to. Ramirez is already too conflicted and would probably not deal well with it. I am not even sure he even knows of the position - which would upset him to learn of it, particularly because it would violate quite a few of his principles. The position isn't common knowledge amongst the Council. Besides, Harry getting a power up won't make life easier for him - so it's even more likely he will get it, if anyone does. It would only convince the Council he was even more dangerous or evil. They would hate to lose such a powerful weapon. It might even be the thing that sets them at him. He would look a bit like the Dark Lord from their perspective.
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on August 07, 2021, 09:40:40 PM ---Ziusudra ruled around 2900 BC. He was the last king before the Flood, not the last king.
Gilgamesh visited an already immortal Ziusudra around 2700 BC.
The great pyramids were created no earlier than 2550 BC.
That means Ziusudra had a few hundred years to grow bored with immortality before he set out to do things, and could have been in Cairo in time for the pyramids. I'm not saying he would have been responsible, but I could see an immortal like that being a guiding hand for knowledge and education, and being there for important events.
--- End quote ---
Certainly an intriguing possibility. I wouldn't mind meeting an "immortal mortal" if you like. No real powers, just lives forever. His real strength is his extensive knowledge.
I wonder about him being around during the time of the pyramids though. He could have been there, but the Gods were fairly active back then. Not to mention the fact Pharaohs were considered living gods for a time. Considering the Pyramids were apparently about Sun worship I would think the Gods would have been more involved with their construction, myself. But maybe it was a joint thing.
I could see him being a part of the House of Life. Perhaps the proto- Librarians in fact. The House of Life were associated with Kingship, and preserving and creating knowledge. Sometimes also associated with physicians and magic. Interestingly, it possibly was absorbed by the Coptic traditions, and considering the enormous links between the Catholic Church and Egypt (the Catholic Church just loved getting Ancient Egyptian artefacts, particularly obelisks), I could see the House of Life becoming the Catholic Church, and then leaving and becoming the Librarians.
Although, considering their style in the Dogmen comic, I don't have high hopes. Far more MIB than Watchers.
Second Aristh:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 10, 2021, 12:04:41 AM ---I agree that targeting would be an issue, but not an insurmountable one. There are other ways of learning a location than locking on to a target with a tracking spell. Even mundane means. It's more the apparent lack of effort or result that bothers me. It seems at odds with the implacable, highly dangerous, hot-head that is Ebenezar.
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Wizards hex up mundane means quite often. Maybe not insurmountable, but I think it would be difficult enough to end the mission before it began.
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 10, 2021, 12:04:41 AM ---Yeah, I still wonder about that weird Lara and Eb romance theory. They certainly have a weird history that we don't know about. I wouldn't put anything like that past Jim - consider Nicodemus and his daughter's relationship. If that was fine for the story, just about anything's on the table. Yes, I think it makes sense that many of the previous siblings would have died or been culled. Seems odd though to allow your kin to get slaughtered so much considering they are meant to continue the family line. We know Lord Raith often just kills his sons. But allowing his daughters to die, or killing them off occasionally seems odd. The fact that his "eldest" daughter is merely 300 or so when he himself is roughly 2000 years old...something doesn't add up.
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It is kind of odd, but the bookkeeping for the family tree is probably easier that way.
--- Quote ---How many sisters does Thomas have?
I can’t find that notebook, grr. I think it’s nine. Papa Raith’s bodyguards minus one who is utterly bonkers and kept more or less in the attic, and Inari, the one who got away.
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Also, I forget why we're assuming Lara is the oldest. Is it because she's the boss or is that a book quote that I've forgotten?
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 10, 2021, 12:04:41 AM ---The White Court's psychic attack is powerful, I grant you. But Grey is the scion of a mortal and an immortal. Uriel took notice of him. I can't see Lord Raith laying out such a powerful being with a single move. But true enough, we just don't know. Something to ask Jim sometime. I find it interesting though that White Court vampires don't often use it on powerful beings. None of them tried it on the Naagloshii, or on the Denarians, or the Fomor (the leaders, not the hybrid warriors). Seems like they don't just throw it around at everything. We've never even seen it tried on another vampire. Which makes me wonder if it's really only effective on mortals or other White Court vampires (and maybe some Faeries). In any case, if Grey were concerned about that sort of thing (and he would have fought the White Court before), he would adjust his methods presumably. Considering how easy it was for the Naagloshii to carve them up whole sale, I can't imagine he would have too much trouble. Sure, he isn't as powerful as Shagnasty but still.
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Point of fact, Lara has thrown whampire mojo at Madeline and her father (also how Papa Raith kept his daughters in line). It's not just mortals. It was a bit weird that they didn't do it against the uber-ghouls, true. Maybe it's more disruptive than helpful in group fights?
The "Who could take down Mab" WoJ seems to imply that the extremely narrow path for the entire White Court to defeat Mab would be via mass mind whammy.
Goodman Grey is probably nowhere near as powerful as Shagnasty. I don't see the clear tactic that Grey would use against Papa Raith. A pure physical attack would have to be immediately decisive or be subject to a mind whammy, but whampires are tough to make that happen. On that scale of beings that could make that happen, the cost to rent their services could be too high.
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 10, 2021, 12:04:41 AM ---You see, I had Ramirez picked for the eventual Merlin. Assuming the White Council survives/is reborn. He follows the rules, is well respected, values chain of command, has proven himself in the field etc. He doesn't have the right mentality to be the Blackstaff. It's about being able to make the right calls and live with the consequences. It's about being able to get your hands dirty so others don't have to. Ramirez is already too conflicted and would probably not deal well with it. I am not even sure he even knows of the position - which would upset him to learn of it, particularly because it would violate quite a few of his principles. The position isn't common knowledge amongst the Council. Besides, Harry getting a power up won't make life easier for him - so it's even more likely he will get it, if anyone does. It would only convince the Council he was even more dangerous or evil. They would hate to lose such a powerful weapon. It might even be the thing that sets them at him. He would look a bit like the Dark Lord from their perspective.
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Maybe. I'd put Luccio over Ramirez for Merlin, though. She's a better political fit, sympathetic for the old guard but flexible enough to work for the younger generations.
I'd also say no one that isn't upset about the existence of the Blackstaff is worthy to wield it. That being said, I still don't like Harry as the next Blackstaff.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Second Aristh on August 10, 2021, 01:29:41 AM ---Wizards hex up mundane means quite often. Maybe not insurmountable, but I think it would be difficult enough to end the mission before it began.
It is kind of odd, but the bookkeeping for the family tree is probably easier that way.
Also, I forget why we're assuming Lara is the oldest. Is it because she's the boss or is that a book quote that I've forgotten?
Point of fact, Lara has thrown whampire mojo at Madeline and her father (also how Papa Raith kept his daughters in line). It's not just mortals. It was a bit weird that they didn't do it against the uber-ghouls, true. Maybe it's more disruptive than helpful in group fights?
The "Who could take down Mab" WoJ seems to imply that the extremely narrow path for the entire White Court to defeat Mab would be via mass mind whammy.
Goodman Grey is probably nowhere near as powerful as Shagnasty. I don't see the clear tactic that Grey would use against Papa Raith. A pure physical attack would have to be immediately decisive or be subject to a mind whammy, but whampires are tough to make that happen. On that scale of beings that could make that happen, the cost to rent their services could be too high.
Maybe. I'd put Luccio over Ramirez for Merlin, though. She's a better political fit, sympathetic for the old guard but flexible enough to work for the younger generations.
I'd also say no one that isn't upset about the existence of the Blackstaff is worthy to wield it. That being said, I still don't like Harry as the next Blackstaff.
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Wizard hexes, sure. Not Vampire hexes though! Harry has employed mortal agents before in order to get what he needs, like that ex-cop PI in Turn Coat. But even non-technological aids like tracking chips. Even good old fashioned recon and intel. One guy with eyes on the target calling in the air strike, for example. Or even just learning where a certain person will be and planning accordingly. There's plenty of non-magical means that wouldn't be hard to implement. No, I think Ebenezar had other reasons for not pursuing the White King...assuming he did in the first place.
Honestly, probably just a hole in Jim's story. Nothing deeper than that. Same with the ages of Lord Raith's children being so much younger.
Mostly because she's in charge and supernatural beings tend to go for the whole seniority denotes authority. She might not be though, I grant you. I don't believe it's stated ever she is the oldest or first born or anything along those lines.
I did actually say they had thrown their vampire whammy at other White Court vampires (but I forgive you for missing it, I did present a wall of text). Well, probably the main reason is it causes White Court vampires of House Raith to try and screw their victims. I can't imagine they would attempt that on uber-ghouls or skinwalkers etc. And yes, perhaps it wouldn't be all that useful in a fast fight and they prefer to rely on their speed and strength. Maybe it's only a last resort weapon when the Hunger takes over. But Lord Raith didn't mind just zapping people once upon a time (and perhaps other tricks). So presumably, it can be used in combat. Which is why I wonder about the effectiveness on particular beings.
That, and actual combat. Basically wearing down Mab by fighting and whammying until she succumbed. Pretty horrible fight I imagine. Not even sure it would work without the White King absorbing some of her hits. She is terrifyingly powerful. I believe Jim said it was pretty long odds anyway, even with the whole White Court.
Oh I agree Grey isn't at the same level as Shagnasty. I think being a shapeshifter he would try and impersonate a delicious mortal meal and then attack him with overwhelming force while his guard is down. But I don't doubt Grey also can use mortal weapons too. I doubt he would try the same tactic of overwhelming force as Shagnasty. Considering Grey can turn his hands into sickles of bone he could quite possibly decapitate and/or eviscerate Lord Raith if he got the jump on him. I can imagine he knows which of his many shapes would work best. Notice he turned into something particularly suited to fighting Ursiel/the Genoskwa. Also, the old fashioned kidnap and kill. Even something built to trap and render Lord Raith immobile would work well enough. The real question is whether McCoy and Grey would work together at all.
See, as much as I get your reasoning with Luccio I think she will die. She's part of the old guard. In a world where the White Council is remade (which won't necessarily happen should the White Council collapse), I can't imagine any of the old guard will be around. It will be a new generation, for a new world. Also, Luccio is another person who the death owl is hovering over (at least to me). I don't think she'll survive too much longer. She's a very killable character and Jim needs characters to kill. If the Merlin goes soon, I think the Council's collapse would be imminent. If not, it would probably mean someone like Cristos taking over and the Council becoming much worse - or flat-out evil (if Cristos is Black Council, for example).
I get what you mean. No one that wields the Blackstaff should be comfortable using it. But considering Eb chooses his successor, I can only see him choosing Harry. Certainly not Ramirez over Harry. The only way Ramirez might even get it would be if he picked it up literally off the ground right after Eb dies. But as I say, I don't think Ramirez is prepared to get into the world of grey. He sees the world still too black and white. Look at his most recent argument with Dresden.
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 10, 2021, 12:04:41 AM ---Certainly an intriguing possibility. I wouldn't mind meeting an "immortal mortal" if you like. No real powers, just lives forever. His real strength is his extensive knowledge.
I wonder about him being around during the time of the pyramids though. He could have been there, but the Gods were fairly active back then. Not to mention the fact Pharaohs were considered living gods for a time. Considering the Pyramids were apparently about Sun worship I would think the Gods would have been more involved with their construction, myself. But maybe it was a joint thing.
I could see him being a part of the House of Life. Perhaps the proto- Librarians in fact. The House of Life were associated with Kingship, and preserving and creating knowledge. Sometimes also associated with physicians and magic. Interestingly, it possibly was absorbed by the Coptic traditions, and considering the enormous links between the Catholic Church and Egypt (the Catholic Church just loved getting Ancient Egyptian artefacts, particularly obelisks), I could see the House of Life becoming the Catholic Church, and then leaving and becoming the Librarians.
Although, considering their style in the Dogmen comic, I don't have high hopes. Far more MIB than Watchers.
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It's interesting to note that in all the iterations I could find, Ziusudra/Noah/etc has a wife, but she's never named. Noah's wife's name is speculated, but isn't known for sure. But in the case of Ziusudra and Atrahasis, the wife was made immortal too.
If I were writing it, I'd have Ziusudra found the Library, and his wife found the Archive. Both of them taking different approaches to the same goal, of preserving humanity's wisdom.
It's all fan fic, of course, but I like it. ;D
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