The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
What will Eb do?
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Second Aristh on August 04, 2021, 05:47:35 PM ---I found the WoJ, Papa Raith is around 2000 years old total. The White Court's official language is Etruscan, so their court likely does predate Rome, but not Papa Raith himself.
I'm still thinking Lara is of a similar age to Luccio tbh, like born between Langtry and Luccio. I can't find references to it explicitly, but she mentions living in Japan for a big chunk of the 1700's in PT and Luccio was born late 1700's early 1800's since she can barely remember the War of 1812.
A sniper bullet would put a hole in a whampire's head, but I don't think it would be enough to reliably put one down by itself. Lara shook off a grenade in the face.
Thaumaturgy requires a metaphysical link to the target. Raith's protection is going to make that nigh impossible. He's magical teflon. That means magical attacks are going to be tougher to pull off. A satellite drop could be area targeted to Chateau Raith, but what if Papa Raith was in the Deeps and it misses? Gathering information on a foreign head of state seems harder than you make it out to be. Especially when he somehow stymies all your best tools. Eb evidently took three shots and all three didn't work. Papa Raith couldn't hit back because of Maggie Sr's curse, so he took a hit to his standing in the White Court and didn't retaliate.
Was that actually known information, though? I get the sense that Maggie Sr was hopping everywhere throughout the NN for the last portion of her life (cough cough setting up the Circle cough cough). I don't think where she was living was really public information beyond she had been seen with lots and lots of unsavory folks.
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Yes, that's sounds about right. Raith himself perhaps doesn't pre-date Rome then. But seemingly born right around the birth of Christ. I wouldn't be surprised if he was involved in those events to some degree. Especially as that quote from Jim is a few years old himself, and he's probably rounding a little by a few years.
Certainly possible, I grant you. Seems odd though that Lord Raith's eldest child was only born 150 years ago. Did he kill most of the others? Or were they just culled over time by bad events.
That's true, the White Court's regenerative abilities are subtle and underrated. That being said, I doubt Lara could regrow her head. Is it all that different if the spinal cord is severed? I imagine if her head was reattached she could heal...after a while and it would tax her. But how long could her head be off before she would die? Massive damage to the brain would be fairly significant. Maybe if the bullet were specially designed for to counter their healing factor. But I grant you, an ordinary bullet on reflection does seem a little underpowered.
To Raith himself, perhaps. To his person...that's a different issue. Magical tracking devices and all. Or even spiritual intel. I can't imagine Eb dropped a satellite...I feel we would have heard about such a significant assault by now. Also, the wording around Eb's attacks on Lord Raith suggest he tried purely magical methods. Had he tried a physical assault like dropping a satellite it would have worked. The inconsistencies in Ebenezar's story could be Jim's or they could be that Ebenezar doesn't have his story straight.
--- Quote from: TrueMonk on August 05, 2021, 06:44:22 AM ---I still think the simplest explanation is that pappa wraith on a full tank is extremely tough. Yes a large caliber bullet to the head would (perhaps) kill the other WC vampires, but I think they are also in a totally different weight class than him. If Lara is from around 1700 and he is from around year 0 then he is six times older. Maybe Eb did drop a satelite on him, but it did not kill him. Or maybe he tried to drop a satelite on him but his super hearing picked it up and he was so fast that he could run away in time? If he could rip the life force from someone with a kiss maybe Goodman Grey would not have fared so well. Maybe when he was with a full tank he did not have to settle for mortal dominated henchmen, he could have had his own dominated pet shapeshifter (or something else)
The simplest explanation as to why someone lives for 2000 years with a lot of enemies is that they are very hard to kill. I cannot imagine that Eb is the first one he pissed off.
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Oh sure, he's tough. But the stated reason that he survived was his immunity to magical assault. As Harry finds out, the loop hole to this is physical assault. So you can still hurl objects at him kinetically, for example, and he his magical protection won't do jack to stop it. Lord Raith doesn't have wards on his person. I don't buy the super hearing explanation - Ortega's senses didn't help him much. And as above, I don't think Eb even tried that method or anything that overt because we would have heard about it. As for the Kiss of Death trick, that only works if his assassin got close enough...and it's unclear if how well it would work against stronger supernatural beings. I don't doubt a lesser Red Court vampire or a lesser Faerie would probably not have much of a chance - but I don't know that someone like Goodman Grey, particularly with his survivability (Nicodemus thinks he would be the most likely to survive after himself in Skin Game), would be as affected as lesser beings. He's quite tough, he took on the Genoskwa while possessed by Ursiel and nearly beat him in a straight fight.
Sure, the fact he is so old suggests he is a survivor. But the thing we know about the White Court is they eschew straight fights and survive by subtler methods. They blend in, they "befriend" their enemies, they make themselves indispensable to their allies, they rarely take active roles in fights and prefer to use cat's paws and manipulation. The biggest reason Lord Raith has survived for so long is likely because he mostly avoids fights and takes out his enemies before they realise the fight is on. Consider his method of killing Margaret. He didn't bother to rip the life out of her personally. He used a ritual spell to kill her, one that wouldn't even necessarily be able to be linked back to him. Only Ebenezar was aware (on the mortal plane) as far as we know.
--- Quote from: Basil on August 05, 2021, 01:36:05 PM ---I don't think that McCoy is going to do much, I think we've seen plenty of foreshadowing that he's going to die soon. Not in combat or anything like that, he's going to stroke out.
I think he's going to die, give the Blackstaff to Harry and that will kick off the White Council civil war.
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Would be a waste of a writing opportunity to have Eb die in his sleep. I doubt Jim will do something so unexciting. Not to mention, one thing we know in the Dresden Files is character deaths are sudden, violent and gut-wrenching. I am sure he will die trying to save Harry, and he will give Harry the staff then/drop it and Harry will pick it up.
--- Quote from: BrainFireBob on August 05, 2021, 07:40:15 PM ---Proof, please. How would killing Maggie count as breaking the Accords?
If they killed her at a reception where she was a guest, sure- but it wasn't that kind of situation. Harry didn't violate the Accords by killing Bianca- he granted the power to the shades of her victims to do it. But they did it of their own free will independent of Harry. That's why the war was Red Court vs. White Council- no violation of the Accords, everyone else stayed out of it.
Regarding the bullets: I think Jim's going for "A bullet that killed a hero is a hero killing bullet" kind of situation- those with great destinies that were broken gaining metaphysical mass. The bullet from Nelson is firing with the force of Nelson's life.
Regarding Papa Raith- he killed his brother by tossing him from an airplane. Papa Raith is 2k years old, and has lead the White Court for some time. Baby brother was probably not a mere few centuries old. Nice nod towards the Raiths realizing Papa had lost his mojo.
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Well, without a copy of the Accords it's a bit difficult but one rule that has been stated over and over again is attacking another nation is illegal under the Accords. Back when Raith murdered Maggie Snr, she was still a wizard and member of the White Council. She was due to be arrested and put on trial by the White Council, but she hadn't yet been expelled. Therefore, she was entitled to the protections that the Accords provide. An attack on her was an attack on the White Council.
I think you'll find that's semantics when it comes to how Harry killed Bianca. Neither the White Council or the Red Court thought Harry hadn't killed Bianca. Nor Harry for that matter. Shades don't have Free Will, they're not souls. Ghosts are created in the image of the being that created them from the energy of their death. They're not dissimilar to a magical clone, but more like an echo. Jim described it as filling a footprint with water. The ghost isn't the foot that made the foot print. They're the water that takes the shape of the foot. So Harry did kill Bianca. It was the result of his magic. The White Council as a whole believed that mad Harry of Chicago had violated Bianca's guest right and attacked a noble of a foreign power. That Bianca provoked him didn't seem to matter much. Harry isn't much of a lawyer, so he failed to understand the complexities of his situation nor was he able to argue them well enough. The game was rigged anyway, so that wouldn't have mattered I suppose. I think you'll find that the White Court joined the Red Court as allies in their war with the White Council, and the White Council was joined by the Fellowship of St Giles and the Ventori Umbrorum. So not like it was just two nations going head to head.
--- Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on August 07, 2021, 02:24:49 AM ---First, Ebenezer is bound to warn Harry that White Council is thinking of taking him out, even if formal charges haven't been made against him yet. The second thing to remember is Ebenezer is capable of doing subtle deadly magic. I doubt he tried to bring a satellite down on Lord Raith's head.
I could see Eb trying some kind of entropy curse on Lara, perhaps think that would even the scales for what her father did to his daughter. However, should this occur, I won't be surprised if afterwards Ebenezer warns Harry that Lara is immune to magical attacks, which would raise the question of how Eb could know that.
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Definitely he will warn Harry. Hell, he might even just straight up fight the Council. They will surely anticipate Eb's reaction so it could get nasty soon.
Sure, Eb can do subtle magic. I think he would have tried complex, purely spiritual assaults on Lord Raith rather than hurling meteors at him. We can infer that because presumably he wouldn't have known about Lord Raith's magical protection, and when he came up against it he was stumped. He then presumably tried two different methods before giving up. Either he was foolish to not consider the physical angle, or an idiot. I don't think he is either which is why I wonder if Eb even tried at all.
I doubt Lara is also immune to magic. I wouldn't be surprised if she learnt about it and eventually gains it...but I doubt she is currently.
--- Quote from: groinkick on August 07, 2021, 05:19:20 AM ---Did you ever watch the Highlander TV show? Well on the show there are The Watchers. They are supposed to watch, and catalog the things that go on with Immortals but to never interfere. So they pretty much know everything about the Immortals but the Immortals don't really know about them. Anyways at one point a group of them decide to start killing the Immortals. The Immortals who are great at hiding, and combat (from centuries of experience) didn't really know what was hitting them or how to respond.
I could see something like that happening. I mean when the Red Court used mortals who used poison gas to get past the Wardens wards, it was very effective. So a super secret organization with vast resources, technology, information, and weaknesses of the supernatural community could do quite a lot if they felt it necessary.
I think if they did something it would be ultra assassin stuff that left no real trace, and not something big and flashy.
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That sounds about right for the Librarians.
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: groinkick on August 07, 2021, 05:19:20 AM ---Did you ever watch the Highlander TV show? Well on the show there are The Watchers. They are supposed to watch, and catalog the things that go on with Immortals but to never interfere. So they pretty much know everything about the Immortals but the Immortals don't really know about them. Anyways at one point a group of them decide to start killing the Immortals. The Immortals who are great at hiding, and combat (from centuries of experience) didn't really know what was hitting them or how to respond.
I could see something like that happening. I mean when the Red Court used mortals who used poison gas to get past the Wardens wards, it was very effective. So a super secret organization with vast resources, technology, information, and weaknesses of the supernatural community could do quite a lot if they felt it necessary.
I think if they did something it would be ultra assassin stuff that left no real trace, and not something big and flashy.
--- End quote ---
I'm really hoping Ziusudra is the founder and leader of the Librarians. I think he'd be perfect for it.
* He's immortal.
* He's human with no known powers.
* Historically, he helped humanity survive a divine-based apocalypse.
* He was the last of a line of Sumerian kings.
* Sumerians all but invented civilization and writing.
* Two of the oldest surviving texts mention him by name. One is a guide from his father on how to rule; the other is the Epic of Gilgamesh, where he's mentioned as an immortal that Gilgamesh seeks out in his own quest for immortality.
* He could be an amalgamation character in the Dresden files, and Harry could meet him and learn at the end that he's also known as Atrahasis, Utnapishtim, and Noah.
* As an immortal, he could have overseen the creation and relocation of the greatest libraries in history, moving a collection from place to place, until it ended up in America.
* He could have overseen the growth of the earliest empires, and the wonders they built, from the gardens of Babylon to the pyramids of Egypt to the lighthouse of Alexandria.
* The library could be the latest incarnation of a long list he oversaw, including the libraries of Ashurbanipal, Alexandria, Pergamum, Trajan's Forum, Constantinople, the Baghdadian House of Wisdom, and finally the museums of the west.
KurtinStGeorge:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 07, 2021, 03:00:26 AM ---Been a hard week so I am a bit confused, if Eb tries an entrophy curse on Lara and it is successful. Then she is dead right? So what's to warn Harry about? I can see Eb admitting to it, and telling Harry about it because it would put him in a tough spot.
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You are conflating two separate ideas into one idea. They are separate and distinct. The first is about Ebenezer reacting to White Council (Arthur Langtry and company) intentions to get rid of Harry. The second is Ebenezer's personal vendetta against the White Court and his desire to save Harry from the White's and what Eb sees as Harry's naiveté in regard to how evil the White Court is. These ideas are only indirectly related because Ebenezer might believe that by killing Lara Raith he would (temporarily) be removing some of the fear of what Harry is becoming and the pressure to remove him. I don't have much more to say about the first idea, it's fairly self explanatory, so everything else is about the second idea.
I have long speculated in other threads; going back to the original forum, that at some point Lara is going to demonstrate that she has learned her father's secrets and at that point she will no longer need to maintain the fiction that Lord Raith is still the effective leader of the White Court. My original hypothesis had Lord Raith dying, which would lead to some type of White Court meeting or council to discuss who should lead the Court. This would prompt Lara to use the "kiss of death" technique her father was said to have been able to use to silence critics and would be challengers to her rule.
I now see a possibility that Ebenezer will try to kill Lara only to discover that she has become immune to magic. As of Peace Talks and Battle Ground that isn't true. By the end of the next Twelve Months, maybe things will have changed. Lara now knows that Marcone is a denarian. She might not know which of the Fallen Marcone has made his business partner, but she can guess that Marcone now has some magic ability of his own to wield. Lara is being forced into a political marriage with Harry. She has long wanted to control Harry, but knows how dangerous Harry is and how surprisingly cunning he can sometimes be. If Lara knows of, or learns of her father's immunity to magic, she will almost certainly want to acquire the same immunity herself.
So, if Ebenezer makes an attempt to kill Lara and fails, he would probably want to warn Harry about her immunity to mortal magic. However, it would lead to the somewhat embarrassing confession that Ebenezer was; once again, attempting to interfere in Harry's life; for his own good, of course.
Avernite:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on August 07, 2021, 02:08:52 PM ---I'm really hoping Ziusudra is the founder and leader of the Librarians. I think he'd be perfect for it.
* He's immortal.
* He's human with no known powers.
* Historically, he helped humanity survive a divine-based apocalypse.
* He was the last of a line of Sumerian kings.
* Sumerians all but invented civilization and writing.
* Two of the oldest surviving texts mention him by name. One is a guide from his father on how to rule; the other is the Epic of Gilgamesh, where he's mentioned as an immortal that Gilgamesh seeks out in his own quest for immortality.
* He could be an amalgamation character in the Dresden files, and Harry could meet him and learn at the end that he's also known as Atrahasis, Utnapishtim, and Noah.
* As an immortal, he could have overseen the creation and relocation of the greatest libraries in history, moving a collection from place to place, until it ended up in America.
* He could have overseen the growth of the earliest empires, and the wonders they built, from the gardens of Babylon to the pyramids of Egypt to the lighthouse of Alexandria.
* The library could be the latest incarnation of a long list he oversaw, including the libraries of Ashurbanipal, Alexandria, Pergamum, Trajan's Forum, Constantinople, the Baghdadian House of Wisdom, and finally the museums of the west.
--- End quote ---
If he is a Sumerian character, I think we can't blame the Pyramids on him. The pyramids predate the fall of Sumeria as a civilization. Though, I suppose he could have left Sumeria and just have given them writing, then moving to Egypt to go Pyramid-building.
Second Aristh:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 07, 2021, 11:28:39 AM ---Yes, that's sounds about right. Raith himself perhaps doesn't pre-date Rome then. But seemingly born right around the birth of Christ. I wouldn't be surprised if he was involved in those events to some degree. Especially as that quote from Jim is a few years old himself, and he's probably rounding a little by a few years.
Certainly possible, I grant you. Seems odd though that Lord Raith's eldest child was only born 150 years ago. Did he kill most of the others? Or were they just culled over time by bad events.
That's true, the White Court's regenerative abilities are subtle and underrated. That being said, I doubt Lara could regrow her head. Is it all that different if the spinal cord is severed? I imagine if her head was reattached she could heal...after a while and it would tax her. But how long could her head be off before she would die? Massive damage to the brain would be fairly significant. Maybe if the bullet were specially designed for to counter their healing factor. But I grant you, an ordinary bullet on reflection does seem a little underpowered.
To Raith himself, perhaps. To his person...that's a different issue. Magical tracking devices and all. Or even spiritual intel. I can't imagine Eb dropped a satellite...I feel we would have heard about such a significant assault by now. Also, the wording around Eb's attacks on Lord Raith suggest he tried purely magical methods. Had he tried a physical assault like dropping a satellite it would have worked. The inconsistencies in Ebenezar's story could be Jim's or they could be that Ebenezar doesn't have his story straight.
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His protection wouldn't have worked against the satellite directly (Harry's keys, for example, worked as intended), but the problem is targeting. I don't think a tracking spell would have had anything to grasp on Papa Raith, and it's not worth the risk to try without knowing it's going to hit. Other physical assaults are probably going to be similarly difficult for whatever reason.
Three hundred plus instead of 150 for Lara, but yeah the timing is a bit off. She's probably closer to Eb's age than Luccio's. Probably bias of the "next generation of leadership" getting me of thinking they were more contemporary. Could be a few earlier sons which he culled or daughters whampire politics got combined with poor whampire fertility for why Lara's the eldest now.
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 07, 2021, 11:28:39 AM ---Oh sure, he's tough. But the stated reason that he survived was his immunity to magical assault. As Harry finds out, the loop hole to this is physical assault. So you can still hurl objects at him kinetically, for example, and he his magical protection won't do jack to stop it. Lord Raith doesn't have wards on his person. I don't buy the super hearing explanation - Ortega's senses didn't help him much. And as above, I don't think Eb even tried that method or anything that overt because we would have heard about it. As for the Kiss of Death trick, that only works if his assassin got close enough...and it's unclear if how well it would work against stronger supernatural beings. I don't doubt a lesser Red Court vampire or a lesser Faerie would probably not have much of a chance - but I don't know that someone like Goodman Grey, particularly with his survivability (Nicodemus thinks he would be the most likely to survive after himself in Skin Game), would be as affected as lesser beings. He's quite tough, he took on the Genoskwa while possessed by Ursiel and nearly beat him in a straight fight.
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I think you're undervaluing the whampire mojo factor for someone like Grey. Doesn't matter how hard you can hit if you've been psychically stunned. Maybe Grey can withstand something like that and still fight, but I don't think it's a foolproof strategy.
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 07, 2021, 11:28:39 AM ---Would be a waste of a writing opportunity to have Eb die in his sleep. I doubt Jim will do something so unexciting. Not to mention, one thing we know in the Dresden Files is character deaths are sudden, violent and gut-wrenching. I am sure he will die trying to save Harry, and he will give Harry the staff then/drop it and Harry will pick it up.
--- End quote ---
After BG, I'm actually thinking that Ramirez is a better candidate for next generation Blackstaff. The White Council would fight Harry's possession of it, and it would be too close to Mother Winter in his hands. Everybody likes Carlos, though. Plus, Harry admitted that he was becoming a better wizard, at least for the subtle stuff.
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