The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Could any Senior Council member handle Harry if
groinkick:
--- Quote from: forumghost on July 03, 2021, 11:24:08 PM ---I mean we know that there are ways to increase ones magical ability.
It just depends on how squeamish Johnny boy is feeling.
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Marcone is willing to do whatever it takes to achieve a goal. Would not be shocked if he's the next one to attempt a Dark Hallow, and Knight of the Cross Dresden will take him out. The clash of the Sword, with the Fallen, and the Dark Hallow will fracture space, and time.
Snark Knight:
--- Quote from: groinkick on July 04, 2021, 06:09:32 PM ---Marcone is willing to do whatever it takes to achieve a goal. Would not be shocked if he's the next one to attempt a Dark Hallow, and Knight of the Cross Dresden will take him out. The clash of the Sword, with the Fallen, and the Dark Hallow will fracture space, and time.
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Namshiel would probably be rather conflicted about that. On the one hand, host evilly killing a bunch of people is the sort of corrupt-your-human they're supposed to groove on, and (based on DM, if that wasn't another thing the Church has wrong) maybe allow him to run more of his own power through an increasingly corrupted host. On the other hand, is any Fallen going to want his host to gain that much personal power - perhaps enough to be a peer of the Fallen rather than a vessel for them?
And what's the use of corrupting souls if they gain immortality and Hell can't claim them?
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Snark Knight on July 05, 2021, 02:34:52 AM ---Namshiel would probably be rather conflicted about that. On the one hand, host evilly killing a bunch of people is the sort of corrupt-your-human they're supposed to groove on, and (based on DM, if that wasn't another thing the Church has wrong) maybe allow him to run more of his own power through an increasingly corrupted host. On the other hand, is any Fallen going to want his host to gain that much personal power - perhaps enough to be a peer of the Fallen rather than a vessel for them?
And what's the use of corrupting souls if they gain immortality and Hell can't claim them?
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Nothing. The fallen are all about corrupting souls. They don’t want the host to be too powerful that it looses free will and maybe get intellectus and understands what the fallen are really about or does not need the coin anymore because what they offer is mostly inferior to what real godhood offers. They want the host dependent or enslaved.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Arjan on July 05, 2021, 06:13:22 AM ---Nothing. The fallen are all about corrupting souls. They don’t want the host to be too powerful that it looses free will and maybe get intellectus and understands what the fallen are really about or does not need the coin anymore because what they offer is mostly inferior to what real godhood offers. They want the host dependent or enslaved.
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Exactly, and in the end, even if it is a nice "partnership" like Andruiel and Nic, Marcone isn't going to go for that, no matter how much power he gets from it. He will suffer..
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Mira on June 28, 2021, 10:09:37 AM ---While he might like all the magical knowledge and maybe the power, as with Lasciel, in the end Harry is his own man and since Namshiel isn't likely to fall in love with him like Lasciel, it would end badly for him.. It still might end badly for Marcone.
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I think you've missed the point of the question Mira. It's not whether Harry would take up Namshiel's Coin. It's IF Harry took up Namshiel's Coin, could any of the Senior Council (current members) deal with him? The preposition assumes Harry has already taken up the Coin in this hypothetical scenario.
--- Quote from: Mira on July 02, 2021, 01:49:43 PM ---You gotta have talent/power, there is no evidence that Marcone had that before now..
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I don't know about no evidence. Maybe not strong evidence but there are plenty of hints that Marcone is more than merely vanilla. Often it's couched in terms of "He produced a knife so quickly as if by magic" type of thing. Not to mention his ability to get very high-level magical connections like Monoc Security, and he believed from the first time we met him that Harry was a genuine wizard. I wouldn't be surprised if he was a low-to-mid level practitioner and kept his magic well hidden. He'd hardly be the only one, and certainly not the first. It would help to explain his meteoric rise in the criminal underworld and his connections to magical beings, not to mention how he progressed to such advanced magic so quickly. It's even discussed early on with the Denarians how they can make even a low level talent into something dangerous given time. I suspect Marcone might not have even been that low.
--- Quote from: EBRIEN on July 01, 2021, 11:16:49 PM ---Consider this: Marcone is simply the conduit for Namshiel. No inherent magical ability. Like when Bob takes over Mister or Butters gave him free reign to help out. Here's another thought: Lash would say something to the extent that she could show Harry how to call the coin or something or other magic spell. Without her, would he have been able to do it? Or, will Marcone retain the magical abilities conveyed to him once Namshiel has been removed (if)? So...no coin,no magic. Just a thought.
Cheers---Brien
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Don't forget that all mortals actually have the capacity to do magic. It's just harder for some than others. Harry is a major talent. But most of people would be very, very minor. Marcone probably is a low-to-mid level talent. Maybe even latent talent. It's not as simple as no Coin, no magic. Simply because according to the Knights of the Cross there is no way to give up the Coin and be truly free of it without giving up your magic as well. Not to mention not that many give up the Coins in the first place. Most die and are replaced.
--- Quote from: TheCuriousFan on July 01, 2021, 12:32:21 AM ---Titania had dispelled that juice about half a dozen chapters before he started slinging spells.
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Good pick up, and I am glad someone pointed it out.
--- Quote from: Arjan on June 29, 2021, 06:23:39 AM ---Marcone won’t reject the coin. From a story perspective it is needed to keep Marcone in the story on an equal level with Harry. Jim removed his old friend to isolate him more and make him more vulnerable to the influence of the coin. Marcone will become more and more isolated depending on Namshiel.
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I think you're probably onto something here. Yes, he needed a boost to keep up with Harry. But isolation from Hendricks really creates problems for someone like Marcone who has next to no one he can rely on. Namshiel is in a very good position. This might be a partnership of centuries (as many of the Knights are) assuming the world doesn't end before that.
--- Quote ---he took up Thorned? I ask because Lasciel really didn't seem to buff him up that much. Same for her next host... Marcone on the other hand who never showed any magical talent was out doing crazy magic we've never seen Harry do.
If Thorned could make Marcone that good, I have to imagine that Harry, a real wizard with a lot of horsepower would be an absolute nightmare. Harry assumed the previous host was around one to two hundred years more advanced, but Marcone was doing advanced stuff with not to long of training. I think that Harry would grow in months what would take him decades to learn otherwise. After say 5 years I just can't help but think he'd be extremely powerful, and talented, doing magic that he hadn't even imagined.
What do you think?
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Yes, don't forget it's not all about strength. Eb has the Blackstaff (and probably other hidden things). I am not saying they can't be beaten but those guys are generally the strongest, most knowledgeable and connected wizards on the planet. They have spent centuries honing their skills and nurturing their talents, and building their power set. Centuries of doing what Harry is doing. They have plenty of deeds to their names as well. Much of what makes wizards dangerous is they can take on just about anything with enough time and knowledge. They often are fighting outside their weight class.
Harry would be formidable, definitely. And against the less combat inclined Senior Council members like Ancient Mai or Martha Liberty he would have more of a chance. But LtW made a Naagloshii turn tail. Ebenezar redirected energy from a god weapon, and has caused more destruction than most wizards ever have. Who knows what feats the Merlin (Langtry) and The Gatekeeper have done? But I am sure they are incredibly dangerous. Not undefeatable of course. But Harry (even with Namshiel) would need to bring his A-game I suspect.
I also think that others have raised a good point about control. Namshiel probably only feeds enough information to it's host to get what it needs. If giving the host more knowledge made hit too powerful it would risk the host defying it. Namshiel might want to run the show, might not. But it would want either a pliable host with knowledge or a if Namshiel had a more stubborn host like Harry I suspect it would be a bit more careful about what knowledge it gave.
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