The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Nemesis can only be in 13 places at once?
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on June 11, 2021, 09:34:56 PM ---Thirteen is, to me, the second most likely number, and it could very well be correct. But as for finding one host and banishing Beside completely with just one seems... Optimistic? Certainly too easy for Harry, to say the least. And too easy for no-one to have managed it in all the years the Sidhe and Co. have been fighting "Nemesis". But who's to say it's even a possibility?
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Hey, who even says you can even trap a Walker? Those guys are fairly squirrelly. I suspect that Behind was banished, seems like what happened in Harry's past based on the scene in Ghost Story. I would also say Before got banished too. Could be that Behind never has, he seems to jump ship before anything gets too dangerous. I agree though that it seems odd that if it was that easy then why has no one pulled it off yet? It's interesting that everyone keeps acting like Nemesis is new...when it should be very, very old. Older than time. Haven't managed to make sense of that yet.
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on June 11, 2021, 09:34:56 PM ---I want to say it's been confirmed by WoJ, or stated in a way that seemed to confirm, there are three Walkers. And there might have been something about them being three parts of a whole, similar to what you're describing. But it's been too long for me to remember if the was just speculation or theory.
As for roles, I think we've seen what each is good at, and their limitations.
Before is leading the charge (from the Fore-front ;D) and willing to fight, but not all that great at it. He can debuff, and probably buff his own team, but he wasn't all that impressive in the bar fight until he whammied.
Beside is the spymaster who can manipulate the outcome of battles from the Side-lines (I crack myself up ;D) but he's even worse as a combatant.
He's struggled to control his hosts efficiently multiple times (Lea defied him, and he couldn't use Sith to his fullest combat capabilities).
Behind is the most potent, as stated in the books, because he's not stuck beHind (okay that one wasn't as good) some weak or resistant host. He's the assassin in the group that gets physical, but also got banished by a (starborn) kid because he underestimated his enemy.
So, in summary, there's the Cult Leader (Before), the Mastermind (Beside), and the Soldier/Assassin (Behind).
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I like the analogies, and the puns!
I would point out that Before very nearly ended the world, so he's shown his use despite not being the best one on one fighter - although his mind assault did put down everyone including the Erlking. Would have been interesting to see how Kringle took it.
Also, Beside seems to have cause the most destruction to date. Possibly (likely) responsible for most of Harry's early Files, responsible for the Red Court war, and seems ended up causing the most damage we have seen from the supernatural to date by unleashing Ethniu and her Fomor army. It is amusing that Nemesis' hosts often do resist, although none seem to be able to rid themselves of It unaided. In fact, the only person we know of who achieved that seems to be Lea with Mab's help. Everyone else either died or has run away.
Behind is meant to be the really scary one, which is amusing as he also seemingly has achieved the least. It might be nice to see him rip through some supernatural heavyweights or something.
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on June 11, 2021, 12:11:43 PM ---Probably needs it's own thread, but.. what's the quantifiable different between what Fearbringer does and what Nemesis does? Are other walkers also multifaceted beings or just nemesis? And... Has anyone considered the three beer bottles touching has nothing to do with the number of walkers, but the number of manifestations available? Three touching bottles is something I think is oftentimes skimmed over for the greater theoretics.(and of course, the vast assumption it means three walkers are coming, I've not seen challenged by anyone but me. That's the ambiguity of not actually saying anything..) Not three bottles standing together, three touching, as though intimately entwined somehow, interconnected.
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I wouldn't mind seeing a greater thread on this if you're willing to make one. I always thought Fearbringer was the same as Before? I don't see the Nemesis connection exactly.
It could be that the Walkers are not separate beings. Perhaps they are all just different facets, similar to the Queens. I think it's very, very interesting that they are never on screen together. Sure, Nemesis was also in Cold Days. But never in the same scene as Before (unless I am much mistaken). I remember that Mother Winter says something like "So, you have finally seen what lies before you". I know that's the turn of phrase...but the Mothers are deliberate with their words. I have even wondered if their names are less about their position in relation to space, and more about time. Before is in your future, Behind is in your past, Beside is in your present.
groinkick:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on June 11, 2021, 09:34:56 PM ---Thirteen is, to me, the second most likely number, and it could very well be correct.
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What do you believe is the most likely number? 3? I actually think it makes a lot of sense, and more easy to manage (from a writing stand point). Also it would be so dang difficult if you needed to banish all 3 to get Nemesis out of reality.
--- Quote ---As for roles, I think we've seen what each is good at, and their limitations.
Before is leading the charge (from the Fore-front ;D) and willing to fight, but not all that great at it. He can debuff, and probably buff his own team, but he wasn't all that impressive in the bar fight until he whammied.
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He referred to himself as "the harbinger". The meaning is: a person or thing that announces or signals the approach of another... So I think his main, effective weapon is his whammy. His psychic attack was even able to neutralize the Erlking and his crew. What makes this so dangerous is he could cripple a forces front lines, leaving them helpless to attackers. His failures at Mac's and during the battle at the Island is that his forces were limited (he didn't have any at Mac's).... Now imagine if instead he'd have been leading the charge is Battle Ground... All those people would have dropped their shotguns, paralyzed as they got ripped to shreds by the Fomor invading force. Or imagine that when Harry and Eb faced off against those Corner Hounds if he'd used that. Eb would have been defenseless and ripped apart in seconds instead of using this shields long enough for Harry to do this thing. So Before is actually a terrifying entity. He just has a very specific role, and he didn't have the support he needed.
--- Quote ---Beside is the spymaster who can manipulate the outcome of battles from the Side-lines (I crack myself up ;D) but he's even worse as a combatant.
He's struggled to control his hosts efficiently multiple times (Lea defied him, and he couldn't use Sith to his fullest combat capabilities).
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LoL... Beside is a really odd, but frightening enemy... By odd I mean I'm not sure if it's Jim's well thought out design (I hope), or if it's plot armor. What I mean is that on one hand Beside seems really frightening. Can possess people, master manipulator, Angels can't even detect him, and yet the targets he chooses don't seem that great. Why stop with Aurora, Leah, and Maeve? Why not Mab or Titania? Sure it might take longer but once Nemfected the hosts don't seem to have much way of defending themselves from what I can tell.. But maybe they are too powerful. Ok that makes sense. Why Justine? Why not Thomas? He's closer to Harry, he's more physically capable than Justine. Instead of blackmailing him into attacking, why not just possess him and do it? Why not possess Eb or Langtry? Surly possessing Langtry would be a great thing for the Outsiders, and yet it doesn't seem to be the case from what I can tell... So Nemesis targets are a bit strange to me. I'm thinking his weakness is simply a strong will. He says "I am the flaw the corrupts", "the infected wound"... It may be that the victim has some sort of emotional weakness that's easier to exploit. I guess you could say that Beside is a bit of a coward. It prey's on the vulnerable but doesn't do well against someone who has a stronger will. I also thought that Jim said something about older wizards being more set in their ways and that's why they aren't Nemfected but that was a long time ago and I might not be remembering correctly.
--- Quote ---Behind is the most potent, as stated in the books, because he's not stuck beHind (okay that one wasn't as good) some weak or resistant host. He's the assassin in the group that gets physical, but also got banished by a (starborn) kid because he underestimated his enemy.
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Behind I think is the one who uses pure brute strength to kill. He doesn't hide away, or lead the charge. He is the weapon. He doesn't need backup, and once marked, he will always be following you, waiting.
--- Quote ---So, in summary, there's the Cult Leader (Before), the Mastermind (Beside), and the Soldier/Assassin (Behind).
--- End quote ---
For me I see Before as the battering ram. He stuns the front line, allowing his forces to rip them to pieces. Beside creates chaos behind enemy lines. Sows distrust, creates disasters, and is always trying to exploit weaknesses. Beside is the saboteur I think. Behind is the perfect assassin.. Works alone, extremely dangerous, kills without remorse...
To be honest they are dangerous but after seeing what Mab can do, they don't feel as big as her. That being said we've always seen from Harry's point of view, and he's a Starborn. If he wasn't on the scene, the Walkers may have not really had any opposition strong enough to do anything.
groinkick:
So lets say Nemesis can possess 3 beings at a time. Who do you see being the hosts?
1. Justine
2. Cat Sith
3. ????
Leah was still worried Nemesis could influence her so it stands to reason that once you've been possessed, he can return there. So maybe he can have Cat Sith locked up somewhere, find another host, and return to Cat when he needs to use his form for something which could mean he's with Justine, and two different people....
Nemesis is very difficult to peg down. Can he bounce from host to host, or is there a cooldown of some kind where when he moves he needs to stay there for a while before moving again? What exactly is required to corrupt someone? Touch? I don't know, and it's so frustrating not knowing!
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: groinkick on June 13, 2021, 04:00:14 AM ---What do you believe is the most likely number? 3? I actually think it makes a lot of sense, and more easy to manage (from a writing stand point). Also it would be so dang difficult if you needed to banish all 3 to get Nemesis out of reality.
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Yeah, I think three. And I agree that their limitations are only really limiting in regards to Harry. All three seem physically capable of killing lots of human-adjacent people, but I'm not sure how well they'd hold up against top tier (Erlking, Vaddetung, Mab) talent. Mostly because two of three are limited to what they can do because of host bodies.
But metaphysically, they're on par with the top tier talents. Before can whammy retired gods, Behind can infect them and twist them, and I like to imagine Behind being on the level with Ethniu physically.
--- Quote from: groinkick on June 13, 2021, 04:05:26 AM ---So lets say Nemesis can possess 3 beings at a time. Who do you see being the hosts?
1. Justine
2. Cat Sith
3. ????
Leah was still worried Nemesis could influence her so it stands to reason that once you've been possessed, he can return there. So maybe he can have Cat Sith locked up somewhere, find another host, and return to Cat when he needs to use his form for something which could mean he's with Justine, and two different people....
Nemesis is very difficult to peg down. Can he bounce from host to host, or is there a cooldown of some kind where when he moves he needs to stay there for a while before moving again? What exactly is required to corrupt someone? Touch? I don't know, and it's so frustrating not knowing!
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1. Lord Raith
2. Cat Sith (previously Lea, Thorned Namshiel)
3. Justine (previously Aurora, Maeve)
I know everyone thinks Lord Raith is done, and mentally he might be jello. I previously thought he might bounce back, but now I'd settle for him being a Beside host.
Theoretical Scenario:
* As a young Wamp, Lord Rath finds a spell that summons Beside. He asks Beside for protection, and Beside offers him the ability to be as immune to mortal magic as an Outsider is. Raith agrees, thinking he's in charge because of the summoning, but it's a bargain, and in return, he becomes a host to Nemesis-1. The anchor host that's practically untouchable.
* Centuries go by.
* Cowl and Raith become buds, and Raith teaches him about Outsider magic.
* Cowl learns how to make people compliant using Nemfection, which he probably doesn't fully understand. He starts Nemfecting the Council and others, and with Raith's help, makes an athame that can Nemfect Lea as Nem2.
* A second vector is sent to Aurora by Bianca, to not offend one court over the other. Aurora is Nemfected with Nem3.
* Aurora dies, sending Nem3 back to the outside.
* Lea doesn't realize she's Nemfected, and Beside can control her without her awareness. Nem2-Lea nemfects Maeve using the athame, making her Nem3.
* Lea realizes she's Nemfected and turns herself over to Mab, who puts her on ice. They may or may not know about Maeve at this point. One down, two to go, but...
* Nem-Maeve plots to free Nem-Lea, and lures Harry to Arctis Tor to rescue Molly while Mab is stuck dealing with an assault at the Gates. Her Scarecrow lacky positions himself in the right place, resulting in Harry's fire hitting Lea, and almost freeing Nem2.
* Mab learns of Maeve's Nemfection, and gets MAD.
* Mab realizes she can't do this alone so she ends up exorcising it from Lea, freeing her lieutenant to return to duty, but also sending the Nem2 infection Out where it can be summoned again.
* Maeve summons Nem2 back, and reaches out to Thorned Namshiel. She Nemfects the host, until he's killed in SmF.
* Maeve Nemfects Cat Sith. That goes swimmingly until Cat Sith is knocked out of the fight, and Maeve dies, sending Nem3 back outside.Justine Options
* Secretly, Beside takes control of the comatose Raith and creates another vector for Nemfection. Then, when Justine is alone with him for feeding/diaper change/whatev, Nem1 takes control and Nemfects Justine, making her the new Nem3.
* Cat Sith uses his Nemfection to pass Thomas and Justine's threshold without invitation, and Nemfects Justine. Not sure about the vector, unless he can do it without a vector, or he stole the one used on Aurora. (Mab should still have the athame)
* Raith remains comatose, Sith does whatever Sith is doing, and Justine acts as the new primary meddler.
* Harry discovers Justine is Nemfected, and she goes on the run.
This assumes that aside from actual Nemfection possession, there's also a level of Nemfection that corrupts people and things without direct control from Nemesis. Cowl (via Raith), Sells (via Raith), Denton (via Cowl), Kravos (Cowl), Bianca (Mavra), Madrigal (Maeve), Scarecrow (Maeve), Vitto (Cowl), Peabody (Cowl), the Council (Peabody), Arianna (Mavra?), and others (maybe Listen) have all been Nemfected with the corruption agent without Nemesis being involved or in control. The Nemfection just weakens the bonds of the soul in a way that minimizes a person's moral compass and conscience.
Of course, the Thorned Namshiel Nemfection is still just a theory. But it's not critical to the flow, and the rest works I think, even without that one.
Yuillegan:
I like the Lord Raith history, and Cowl's too.
Not sure that I am convinced on the 3 parts of Nemesis or the order of events, but it's an interesting take.
I think we haven't seen the Walkers full power yet. I think that will be available as things get more chaotic.
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