Author Topic: Odin's plan wag  (Read 4288 times)

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Odin's plan wag
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2021, 01:31:14 PM »
However while love is common, selfless love is rare in my opinion.  Jealousy is one of the most destructive forces there is and can rise from love that isn't returned and given to another.  Lash felt selfless love for Harry, but in Lasceil's case, Harry's rejection of her, swiftly turned her love into murderous hate.

I am a huge fan of the show"Forged in Fire."It is a very interesting contest show about bladesmithing,  it is kind of like the show "Chopped,"there are three rounds,the smiths are given materials to forge a blade with in a time limit.  After each round the blades are judged, then tested and someone is eliminated after each round.  Anyway, the biggest thing I've learned from watching the show is a lot of cliches about making strong steel blades are totally false.  First of all, you don't exactly "melt" the metal, or not completely, you heat it to the point where you can shape it, if you screw up this step, the blade will be brittle, or come apart as you try to work it.. You have to heat it before you temper it, get that wrong, again, brittle, cracked, or warped blade.  One cliche I heard a lot is the more a sword is heated and re-quenched, the stronger it becomes... No, you want to avoid re-quenching if you can, because it can make the steel weaker, not stronger. Also not all types of steel can be made hard to be a serviceable blade.  Finally a knife can look perfect, but it snaps when they start to test it.. Yeah, they do things you shouldn't do to a knife, but if it is forged correctly it will hold up.  Back to your point, if love is forged correctly it will hold up under any test... But if it isn't, it will be brittle and break, or worse, turn to hate.
Yes, but the point is that love is fundamentally a force of creation. So how can it also be fundamentally a force of destruction? That would be in direct contradiction.

Jealousy isn't love, nor is it the opposite, despite that it can indeed be borne from love. In the example you use with Laciel, her "love" (if you want to use such a strong word) for Harry became hate. Therefore she no longer was using love as a tool.

Fascinating stuff, I do love shows about that. I have a couple of friends who have learnt to blacksmith and their insights are fantastic. I get what you're saying about the forging process, just to clarify though I was referring to the metal when it is an ore. Once you mine it in order to use it you normally need to heat it so it become soft and ready for shaping. Obviously there are many, many techniques the world over but I have seen that in action.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Odin's plan wag
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2021, 02:42:17 PM »
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Yes, but the point is that love is fundamentally a force of creation. So how can it also be fundamentally a force of destruction? That would be in direct contradiction.

Not really, have you ever heard the saying, "Sometimes you kill the one you love"?  People kill in the name of love all of the time, the rationalization is they are being protective, so they kill for love of country, love of God[ i.e. my religion is true, yours isn't type thing] to protect loved ones.  So no, it isn't a contradiction at all.  It is something that can be twisted, remember "Understand Frodo, I'd only use the Ring for good..."  Love is power, power can be corrupted and twisted with the best of intentions.
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ealousy isn't love, nor is it the opposite, despite that it can indeed be borne from love. In the example you use with Laciel, her "love" (if you want to use such a strong word) for Harry became hate. Therefore she no longer was using love as a tool.

But her love became hate when he rejected her[the coin.]  That's not uncommon, love is an emotion, emotions cannot always be controlled.. As Jim quotes,paraphrasing, "Hell hath no more fury, than a woman scorned.."  It begins with love, and it's rejection, then it morphs into something else.. It can turn into jealousy or hate..

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Fascinating stuff, I do love shows about that. I have a couple of friends who have learnt to blacksmith and their insights are fantastic. I get what you're saying about the forging process, just to clarify though I was referring to the metal when it is an ore. Once you mine it in order to use it you normally need to heat it so it become soft and ready for shaping. Obviously there are many, many techniques the world over but I have seen that in action.

That is the smelting process, which as you know is also a lot more complicated than people think.  Most metals do not come out of the ground in their pure form, it is the same with love.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Odin's plan wag
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2021, 08:50:18 PM »
They're not always truly forging real swords though, as far as melting the blades down. They're working with metal already alloyed together. The melting of the metal is for purification.(or adding carbon) They don't usually need to do that.
Very interesting show though. Still flummoxed how they made two different sabers, one would cut through the rope, but bounce off the fish. The other cut clean through the fish, but bounced off the rope  :o

Offline Mira

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Re: Odin's plan wag
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2021, 11:44:11 PM »
They're not always truly forging real swords though, as far as melting the blades down. They're working with metal already alloyed together. The melting of the metal is for purification.(or adding carbon) They don't usually need to do that.
Very interesting show though. Still flummoxed how they made two different sabers, one would cut through the rope, but bounce off the fish. The other cut clean through the fish, but bounced off the rope  :o

Yeah, that is why it is a facilitating show, and you cannot judge any of the smiths by how they look.
From what I gather it is all about the type of edge they put on their blade.  When they are given a hint of how they are going to test the blades that they make, then they know what kind to design and what kind of edge to put on.  Like your example an edge that will cut rope, won't always cut cleanly though a row of apples or fish.  Then Lord only knows what they were hitting with the edge before they tested to see if the edge was still sharp.  And sometimes there are big chunks missing, what is amazing is there are knives that just chopped deer antler and still are sharp enough to slice cleaning through apples.  Some of the blades they make are also real works of art. 

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Odin's plan wag
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2021, 11:46:38 PM »
Insights on steel making.  Not what one would expect here. But fun. Quenching locks in the crystal structure. Annealing releases the stress on the metal. Forging keeps the metal workable. Banging on the work hardens the metal and annealing reverses that. I grew up playing in a auto/truck spring shop where they did all of that and more. I suspect the edge is the answer to the two sabers. Look at the edges of an axe and a Chef's knife.

It's much more interesting than love. Since love is undefinable, Jim can make it mean precisely what he wants it to mean. Lust is a good stand in for Jim. Greeks had a term for that, eros.  Michael has a couple, familial love, agape and eros. A physicist would beg to differ with you as to love as a force of creation.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Odin's plan wag
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2021, 04:12:47 AM »
t is something that can be twisted, remember "Understand Frodo, I'd only use the Ring for good..."  Love is power, power can be corrupted and twisted with the best of intentions.
But her love became hate when he rejected her[the coin.]  That's not uncommon, love is an emotion, emotions cannot always be controlled.
This, I think is what we are debating. When love becomes twisted and turns to hate, it's no longer love. Yes, you could define it as a force in the Dresden Files. But when it's destroying it's hate, and when it's creating it's love.

That is the smelting process, which as you know is also a lot more complicated than people think.  Most metals do not come out of the ground in their pure form, it is the same with love.
Quite so, I was using a broad term although you're right that I should use the proper word. That's true, normally once extracted the metal has to be refined. Would you say then that love in it's pure form is tainted with hate? So that the original force is something that contains both (and perhaps more), a yin-yang thing? In purely Dresden Files terms of course.

They're not always truly forging real swords though, as far as melting the blades down. They're working with metal already alloyed together. The melting of the metal is for purification.(or adding carbon) They don't usually need to do that.
Very interesting show though. Still flummoxed how they made two different sabers, one would cut through the rope, but bounce off the fish. The other cut clean through the fish, but bounced off the rope  :o
That's true. It isn't really needed to extract or refine your own materials any more as it's cheaper and easier (in general) to go and buy it yourself. Never saw that show, but I am intrigued to watch it.

Insights on steel making.  Not what one would expect here. But fun. Quenching locks in the crystal structure. Annealing releases the stress on the metal. Forging keeps the metal workable. Banging on the work hardens the metal and annealing reverses that. I grew up playing in a auto/truck spring shop where they did all of that and more. I suspect the edge is the answer to the two sabers. Look at the edges of an axe and a Chef's knife.

It's much more interesting than love. Since love is undefinable, Jim can make it mean precisely what he wants it to mean. Lust is a good stand in for Jim. Greeks had a term for that, eros.  Michael has a couple, familial love, agape and eros. A physicist would beg to differ with you as to love as a force of creation.
But isn't that part of the fun of these boards? You never know what you will find!

That's pretty much what I understood - my chemistry is a bit rusty these days, but you're explanation seems solid to me. Did you ever work in the shop yourself?

You're correct of course. Jim can make it mean what he wishes - and he has created a world where metaphorical and metaphysical things can be very real, and physical. So love isn't just a concept in the Dresden Files, it's a magical force that is baked into reality. Perhaps part of it's source. The physicists should probably differ with Jim, he wrote that quote.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Odin's plan wag
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2021, 10:26:16 AM »
That's pretty much what I understood - my chemistry is a bit rusty these days, but you're explanation seems solid to me. Did you ever work in the shop yourself?
No.  I was about 8.  OSHA would have had a fit. Had OSHA existed.  I remember looking into the annealing furnace.  Think of the Gate Of Fire in Hades realm.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 04:50:22 PM by morriswalters »

Offline Mira

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Re: Odin's plan wag
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2021, 02:32:51 PM »
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That's true. It isn't really needed to extract or refine your own materials any more as it's cheaper and easier (in general) to go and buy it yourself. Never saw that show, but I am intrigued to watch it.

It is on the History Channel, on Wednesdays, what I find intriguing is what ever you may think of the contestants or the judges as people you've got to respect their knowledge and skill.

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Quite so, I was using a broad term although you're right that I should use the proper word. That's true, normally once extracted the metal has to be refined. Would you say then that love in it's pure form is tainted with hate? So that the original force is something that contains both (and perhaps more), a yin-yang thing? In purely Dresden Files terms of course.

Oh very much so, because it is all about emotion, and emotions are not always that clearly sorted out by the one feeling them... I am a huge Jane Austin fan, and am rereading Pride and Prejudice at the moment.  Say what you want, but there is a reason why her books are still popular.  As far as emotions go, she nails it.