Author Topic: Star Born Eugenics, Margaret, Senior Council, Winter Court, The Malcolm Factor.  (Read 2030 times)

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24056
    • View Profile
  Reading Yuillegan's excellent post, I ask the question for all the talk of parallels between Harry and Kemmler, what about Kemmler and Cowl?  Until Cowl came along Harry was pretty ignorant on the subject of Kemmler other than he knew that Justin and other Wardens took him down, and that Justin managed to steal Bob out from under the noses of the other Wardens.  We know that Justin had to have put some controls on that original Bob, or Evil Bob, but was using him towards an unknown goal, which also included Elaine and Harry as enforcers and possible star born candidates.  We know that Dead Beat was all about "the book," necromancy and the Dark Hallow, Kemmler had it, but did he write it?  I don't think that question is known.. Mavra knew of the book, and Cowl knew of the book, Lasciel/Sheila knew of it and helped maneuver Harry into getting it and translating it for him.. I'd wager that there are other forces at work as well, why else would Gard be so easily talked out of taking Harry when the Corpsetaker had him down?   

Cowl may have thought Kemmler was mad, but who tried to actually perform Dark Hallow?  It wasn't Kemmler.. So who was/is more dangerous?  Kemmler or Cowl?  Is Cowl yet another star born? They seem to be popping up all over the place these days, why else did he think he could pull it off?  Is that what Mavra is after?  Does she want godhood or was she getting it for Drakul?  Raising the dead on mass is a good trick, but the Black Court doesn't need the book for that.

Was Kemmler originally a failed experiment on the part of the Senior Council?  In other words was he selectively bred by the Council as a star born to be their ultimate enforcer?  Unlike Harry,  from birth he was aware of why he was bred, but in the end that knowledge either drove him mad, or into thinking since he had godlike powers he really didn't need to play the enforcer for the Council. They had to play by his rules, so they took him down..  That is why they kept all knowledge of their second breeding experiment from Harry, better control... However it was doomed to fail as well because Margaret threw a monkey wrench into it when she fell in love with Malcolm.. Also other events orchestrated by others, motives unknown, that are still playing out on the great chess board.

Cowl knew of the Council's eugenics experiments, but not the details of Harry's birth.. He knows what Harry is supposed to be, that is why he said what he did in their first meeting.  HWWB knows about the eugenics experiments as did Justin, but not the impact of "the Malcolm factor."  Margaret knew from the onset that Council was corrupt and rebelled against it in every way she could.  It wasn't until she met and fell in love with Malcolm did she think of a better way to fight the system.. Use this good soul in a little eugenic experiment of her own, the result was Harry. 

What doesn't make sense, is it is clear from Morgan's journal, Peace Talks, and Battle Ground, that the Senior Council is well aware that Harry is a star born.  So was he the product of their second experiment? The facts about it are all hush,hush, and they have or had their own plans on how to use Harry or to make sure they would be able to use him, when the time comes.. Okay, but how is it they used a woman, accused warlock, who supposedly was under a kill on sight order to be the mother?  Was a deal struck with Eb?  But if it was, why do so many seem to be ignorant that Eb is Margaret's father and Harry's grandfather?  How was Margaret able to come forward for this plea deal?  Agreeing to give birth to a star born for the Council?  And if she did,how is it that they allowed her to pick the father? Or was she able to pull a fast one on them with the aid of the likes of Rashid, and the Winter Court? In the process also pulled a fast one on the Winter Court?  She got her baby protected, Mab got ultimately the Winter Knight she wants, but not quite, "the Malcolm Factor" is still at play...  Is Harry merely a pawn?  Star born, but still a pawn in somebody's game, or will he up end the whole thing in the end? If he does, was that all part of the original plan?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2021, 02:45:32 PM by Mira »

Offline LostInTime

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 150
    • View Profile
I hope, I pray, that at some pivotal moment in the BAT, Harry uses sleight of hand to upset the scales. Something he learned from Malcolm.

One thing we've seen clearly in the books is that ALL of the characters are deeply flawed. Either intrinsically, or due to the compromises they've had to make with their power and the deals they've cut to keep the world spinning. After Margaret's death, Harry was raised by Malcolm. Before his power came in, he was solely under the influence of this good man. There's your Malcolm influence right there. This one good man, struggling as a traveling illusionist, still gave Harry his happiest memories. Harry's power doesn't make him defend humanity. The injustices visited on him by Justin DuMorne and the White Council don't make him fight back against monsters. It's Malcolm's influence that is reaching across the years and making Harry TRY.
The more I get to know people, the better I like my dog.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24056
    • View Profile
I hope, I pray, that at some pivotal moment in the BAT, Harry uses sleight of hand to upset the scales. Something he learned from Malcolm.

One thing we've seen clearly in the books is that ALL of the characters are deeply flawed. Either intrinsically, or due to the compromises they've had to make with their power and the deals they've cut to keep the world spinning. After Margaret's death, Harry was raised by Malcolm. Before his power came in, he was solely under the influence of this good man. There's your Malcolm influence right there. This one good man, struggling as a traveling illusionist, still gave Harry his happiest memories. Harry's power doesn't make him defend humanity. The injustices visited on him by Justin DuMorne and the White Council don't make him fight back against monsters. It's Malcolm's influence that is reaching across the years and making Harry TRY.

As Margaret knew, I believe, it would..  I think Malcolm was aware of what she was trying to do as well, that is why in Harry's dream he said it was so unfair what he and Margaret put upon him.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1371
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Thank you, glad you enjoyed the post. It's fun to go down these paths.

I like the Kemmler as a failed experiment theory. Whether the Council made him on purpose or whether they just tried to exploit having a star born on the roster is another thing. But I don't doubt that if they however they got a star born, they would attempt to use it for their own gain.

I think a lot of the stuff about how Margaret was used or Malcolm assumes that there was an experiment that the Council were attempting. If there was no experiment, then those questions become redundant. However, if there was an experiment then I don't entirely put it past the White Council (particularly the Senior Council) to have either coerced or perhaps even forced Margaret to participate. The biggest hypocrites often are the ones who preach the loudest.

I do think that Harry is a piece in someone's game, but I wouldn't say pawn. Maybe a Knight...

I am pretty sure Kemmler wrote the Word of Kemmler. Bit odd to have another write a book with that sort of title. And it was one of a set (Mind, Body, etc) I can't remember the other titles but I think altogether (including the Word) there was 5. I also think Jim is basing the books of Kemmler on the Warhammer Fantasy books of Nagash. In that IP/universe, Nagash is the creator of necromancy and he wrote 9 books on it. Nagash got stronger and stronger and kept coming back after being killed. He even brought back the Heinrich Kemmler (from which the Dresden Files character gets his name - Jim has confirmed this) of that universe. Eventually Nagash becomes a major league god after several attempts, each time getting stronger but finally he gets there. I think Jim is weaving bits of that story into his version of Kemmler.

Well, we don't know that whether Kemmler actually tried to perform the Darkhallow. But he did invent it so it stands to reason he would have wanted to use it. As I said in my other thread, I think it's likely he tried it (and may have briefly succeeded) on the night he was killed: October 30, 1961. Is it not strange that they tried to kill Kemmler on Halloween? Almost feels like a hint. We know that's the only day of the year it is even possible (on Earth) to become a god. I'd guess the Council knew what he was trying to do and only just killed him before he could complete it. Whether they used Tsar Bomba or that was a cover for whatever actually happened is unclear. But we do know there was the largest (man made) explosion ever.

Hard to say what Mavra is after. If she wanted Drakul to become a god (and he doesn't seem to need to) why hasn't he done that by now? I mean, Mavra has had the Word since Dead Beat. Same for Mavra. Can Black Court Vampires even use that ritual? No, I think she has other reasons. Maybe she works with Cowl. Maybe she doesn't want others to use it.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24056
    • View Profile
Quote
I am pretty sure Kemmler wrote the Word of Kemmler. Bit odd to have another write a book with that sort of title. And it was one of a set (Mind, Body, etc) I can't remember the other titles but I think altogether (including the Word) there was 5. I also think Jim is basing the books of Kemmler on the Warhammer Fantasy books of Nagash. In that IP/universe, Nagash is the creator of necromancy and he wrote 9 books on it. Nagash got stronger and stronger and kept coming back after being killed. He even brought back the Heinrich Kemmler (from which the Dresden Files character gets his name - Jim has confirmed this) of that universe. Eventually Nagash becomes a major league god after several attempts, each time getting stronger but finally he gets there. I think Jim is weaving bits of that story into his version of Kemmler.
Even if he wrote it,  did Kemmler invent necromancy?  I doubt it, it was one of the Laws before he came around.  If he did invent Dark Hallow, he didn't think it through very well, as we saw with Cowl, it is easy to stop or disrupt if you can get close enough to do it.
Quote
I do think that Harry is a piece in someone's game, but I wouldn't say pawn. Maybe a Knight...

Maybe that was the purpose in his creation, but I think Margaret meant for him to be a Bishop or Rook, more scope for freedom of movement on the great board.  She may have intended herself to be a Queen in the great game, she had that kind of freedom.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1371
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Even if he wrote it,  did Kemmler invent necromancy?  I doubt it, it was one of the Laws before he came around.  If he did invent Dark Hallow, he didn't think it through very well, as we saw with Cowl, it is easy to stop or disrupt if you can get close enough to do it.

Maybe that was the purpose in his creation, but I think Margaret meant for him to be a Bishop or Rook, more scope for freedom of movement on the great board.  She may have intended herself to be a Queen in the great game, she had that kind of freedom.
No, I certainly don't think Kemmler invented necromancy. I was merely highlighting certain source parallels I have noticed. Necromancy is probably only slightly younger than death I would imagine. Maybe older, depending on it's origins. I still think it's based in Outsider stuff.

Bit of a harsh assessment there. Microsurgery is extremely well thought out yet takes only the slightest mistake to ruin. Big results but very fragile. And considering one has to be a necromancer just to get close to the Darkhallow funnel without being killed, I think the natural defence mechanism was pretty good. I doubt Kemmler thought the Council would use necromancy to get close enough to ruin it. To be honest, it's hard to see how you would stop it being disrupted so easily. Time and time again Harry has shown it's much easier to disrupt or destroy magical workings than create them. He ruined the Denarians circle with ease on Demonreach, but he acknowledged how much incredible effort went into making it.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24056
    • View Profile
Quote
Bit of a harsh assessment there. Microsurgery is extremely well thought out yet takes only the slightest mistake to ruin. Big results but very fragile. And considering one has to be a necromancer just to get close to the Darkhallow funnel without being killed, I think the natural defence mechanism was pretty good. I doubt Kemmler thought the Council would use necromancy to get close enough to ruin it. To be honest, it's hard to see how you would stop it being disrupted so easily. Time and time again Harry has shown it's much easier to disrupt or destroy magical workings than create them. He ruined the Denarians circle with ease on Demonreach, but he acknowledged how much incredible effort went into making it.

I don't think there is any evidence that he actually tried it though.  I think if the Wardens had disrupted it when they killed him, they would have said so.  It would have been part of the report.  There is also this, even though Harry managed to stop Cowl, the act itself didn't kill him..  So can one assume that if the Wardens had disrupted Kemmler mid-spell, that he'd still be alive as well? More food for conspiracy theories.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
The council, or at least what the council had send at the time, could not have stopped Cowl and probable Harry without evil Bob’s introduction to necromancy and his knowledge of the word and even more wardens could not have done so either. It was Sue that made it possible.

The whole thing was well planned.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24056
    • View Profile
The council, or at least what the council had send at the time, could not have stopped Cowl and probable Harry without evil Bob’s introduction to necromancy and his knowledge of the word and even more wardens could not have done so either. It was Sue that made it possible.

The whole thing was well planned.

Don't leave out Sheila/Lasciel, made it possible for Harry to find the book in the first place, then translate it from German, which Harry doesn't speak. Also you mention "Evil Bob," but it was good Bob playing Evil Bob, and then hiding in Sue if I remember correctly.  Also Harry wouldn't have even gotten that far if Gard had her way, Marcone talked her out of taking Harry when the Corpstaker had him down.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Evil Bob introduced Harry to necromancy, he let him swallow a piece of dead before Harry send him back. But yes normal Bob helped as well
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]