The Barabbas curse

[morriswalters]

About the sword, what do you think about that time where Dresden (the man) misused it against Lea?

No consequences.  Lea gets the sword, trades up for the Atheme, Thomas steals it back, Michael does a happy dance and the sword is back in action.

[LaraBeck]

Because she is supposed to be this thinking wise person.. 

Is she? I never thought that about her, maybe knowledgeable or experienced in some stuff that Harry isn't and that's why he gets impressed, but I never saw her as wise, or she wouldn't have fucked up many times.

She is also not thinking of the other people she could put in harm's way because of her injuries nor is she thinking of the people she is charged to protect.

In this point I do agree with you. She could have been a liability in the field, it wasn't safe for her to go, or for the people around her. It's easy to see how, for example, Harry could have get more hurt trying to protect her.

But she obviously wasn't thinking straight. And I think at that point was fueled by Mab's banner or whatever was called, the thing that energized people to fight or run, so Murphy felt she would be able to manage herself. Like Dresden does with the Mantle, not feeling the pain and all that. And she mostly managed. But maybe she would have died the moment Mab's energy was gone, since she was just unable to feel the pain, but could obviously get hurt, and all the battle would exert too much stress on her already weaken state.

and if she saw Harry as a commander in the battle then she should have done her duty

I don't think she ever saw him as a commander, so she had no duty to him. At this point in the story she listens to him if it seems like he knows more, but obviously doesn't see him as someone to obey. I think her speech in Cold Days is pretty telling, she tells him basically "wherever you go, I'll go". Not that that's right or healthy, but it's obviously where she is regarding Harry. Seems like it's all an emotional thing for her at that point.

[TrueMonk]

No consequences.  Lea gets the sword, trades up for the Atheme, Thomas steals it back, Michael does a happy dance and the sword is back in action.

Do you mean just like Butter gets the sword, does happy dance and the sword is back in action and now in some ways stronger than before?

She did it because a monster was killing the person she loves and she was manipulated by one of the main villains of the series who is a master manipulator. I would say loosing, but being close, with nic as a vanilla human underlines how super cool and awesome Murph is. But she is a real human being with feelings and can be manipulated.  At least that is what I got from that scene.

Harry just did it to save himself.

[morriswalters]

Harry like Murphy attempted to use the sword in a way for which it was never intended.  In the process the sword leads to Lea's nemfection and a plot line which ends on Demonreach Island with Maeve and Lily dead. This is my favorite plot line. The sword isn't damaged and Michael gets it back and it's like it never happened.

On the other hand Murphy gets crippled and the sword broken. Butters gets a Jedi power up for which he has no experience. By the next book he gets two werewolf lovers and can bandy words with a Titan. He can also threatens Harry and stops Harry from doing a berserker attack on Rudolf.

I won't mention that if Butters hadn't betrayed both Harry and Murphy by breaching faith with Harry none of it would have happened. I mean that's how Jim wrote it. I'll recap. Butters fucks up, almost derails Mab's program.  Gets Murphy crippled and ends up with a sword.  So Butters goes from zero to superhero in one book. Murphy goes from hero to zero in the same span. 

[TrueMonk]

Regarding Butters being able to threaten Harry

Harry is allmost incapable of backing off because someone dangereous tells him to do so and threatens with physical violence. Who has done something along those lines? Ferrovax at Biancas party sort of did it, but he was not really standing between Harry and anything Harry wanted, except maybe Harry's wish to make fun of others (as I remember it). Odin did something a bit like it when Harry wanted him to stay and he did not have time. Maybe the most apt comparison is when Harry starts badmouthing Hades family and Hades tells him to stop. As I remember the scene Harry stops because he recognises it is impolite, but also because he recognises that Hades is a really dangerous god. These are the sort of really dangerous "people" Harry respects/fears enough to not make fun of. But if Harry thought the right thing to do would be to stop what "they had going on" I think he would try. Some of the very dangerous "people" he does not stop making fun off includes Hugin and Mugin. Someone he does not shy away from screwing things up for when he thinks it is the right thing to do is the Blackstaff. Just to pick two examples from BG.

So to me, it is clear that Harry does not refrain from making a joke or from stopping what Butters has going on because of Butters "sincere willingness to commit violence" and ability to do that, because that would make Harry think Butters is more dangerous than pretty much every villain in the series untill now which would be ridiculous.

As a result I read it as Harry is impressed that Butters can make that sort of statement in that way and happy that his friend has grown. He respects him as a person and thinks they are all mature people who seems to have found some love, boink and let boink as he puts it in the park with Titania, so he has no reason for screw it up for him.

So of course Butters can sincerely threaten Harry with physical violence, it is just that it does not have any effect on what Harry does after that other than it has conveyed a sincere wish from a friend to not do something.

Similarly, when Butters stops Harry in his berserker rage it is by the angel and perhaps to some degrees Butters crying (obviously not Butters) snapping Harry out of it. It is not that the burn on his arm was physically significant.

I would say the butters plotline started when Butters stopped cassius from killing Harry in book 5.

[bigdangmoose]

Book 7 is what you mean, not book 5

[groinkick]

Harry like Murphy attempted to use the sword in a way for which it was never intended.  In the process the sword leads to Lea's nemfection and a plot line which ends on Demonreach Island with Maeve and Lily dead. This is my favorite plot line. The sword isn't damaged and Michael gets it back and it's like it never happened.

Nothing happened?  Susan being half-turned (she's mostly responsible because of showing up), and war with the Red Court?  A lot of that had to do with Michael not having the Sword. 

On the other hand Murphy gets crippled and the sword broken.

She could have taken this like Michael and accepted it as a retirement.  As Jim said, Michael's injuries were his "happy ending".  Most Knights die as Knights.  If Murphy hadn't stolen the Sword from Dresden to begin with, this might not have happened.

Butters gets a Jedi power up for which he has no experience. By the next book he gets two werewolf lovers and can bandy words with a Titan. He can also threatens Harry and stops Harry from doing a berserker attack on Rudolf.

His personal life is not important.  He talks to the Titan, and threatens Harry because he has accepted his role as a Knight of the Cross.  He has been trained by Michael, and is confident in his role.

I'll recap. Butters fucks up, almost derails Mab's program.  Gets Murphy crippled and ends up with a sword.  So Butters goes from zero to superhero in one book. Murphy goes from hero to zero in the same span.

Yes Butters like many characters in the books screwed up royally.  Murphy got Murphy crippled.  She had Nicodemus beat, and screwed up.  Butters took up the torch, and he's now fighting the good fight, but history is not on his side.  Chances are good that he's going to meet a bad ending.

[Mira]

Yes Butters like many characters in the books screwed up royally.  Murphy got Murphy crippled.  She had Nicodemus beat, and screwed up.  Butters took up the torch, and he's now fighting the good fight, but history is not on his side.  Chances are good that he's going to meet a bad ending.

I think that is debatable, yes, Shiro died horribly of the plague and was dying of cancer.  However are there any doubts that he is in Heaven now?  If Butters carries on like Shiro, he might die in a fight, but he wields the Sword of Faith, so it might be a painful death, but there is more beyond that.  Michael is allowed his "retirement" he still lives because he has a family to raise, but if the cause is right, he could handle the end as well.  Maybe that is why Murphy ended up in Valhalla instead of Heaven?  Because she did screw up with the Sword?  Not exactly the halfway purgatory her father exists in, but not Heaven either, both of them are still working on their own redemption.