Mab Lying to Demonreach

[The_Sibelis]

2011 DC signing
Did Mab lie? (At the end of Ghost Story)
Mab did not lie, Mab was wrong. There's a subtle difference to that, at the end of Ghost Story. As far as Mab is concerned, she's telling the truth, because she's telling the truth from her experience, as she knows it. Dresden, however, is getting an earful of truth on a more cosmic level. So we'll see how that plays out a little bit more in the next book

I was there when the old magics were written...

[Arjan]

I was there when the old magics were written...

But is cosmic level truth the same as practical truth?

[The_Sibelis]

But is cosmic level truth the same as practical truth?

yes. Unless you can explain the difference I'm supposed to be denying? It's not for me to sus out why that'd be a cosmic truth and not a practical one, or even what those two things ARE for that matter. So what say you?

[Arjan]

yes. Unless you can explain the difference I'm supposed to be denying? It's not for me to sus out why that'd be a cosmic truth and not a practical one, or even what those two things ARE for that matter. So what say you?

For all practical purposes Mab can change who Harry is by adding pressure, temptation and controlling his sensory in and output. In Uriel's view it is still Harry who changes himself but really what is the practical difference?

I think cosmic truth is a hollow term anyway. Add cosmic to something and it becomes heavier. I just had my cosmic ginger tea. The word has no real meaning.

[morriswalters]

Here's a cosmic level truth.  The author told you the answer to the question.  Mab can force Harry to do anything, but if she does he's a puppet. That isn't changing him, it destroys him.  Jim wanted to make sure you understood this in Cold Days so he had Harry state it.  Then he showed you explicitly with Cat Sith.  When Cat Sith fights Nemesis control and loses, Cat Sith is destroyed and Nemesis is totally in control.

Sith began quivering so hard that he was jitterbugging back and forth in place on the floor, his head twitching, his fur standing on end and then abruptly lying flat again. “Fight it, Sith,” I urged him quietly. “It doesn’t have to win. Fight it.” For a second, I thought I saw something of Cat Sith’s smug, contemptuous self-assurance on the malk’s face. And then it was gone. Just gone. Everything went away, and the malk stood for a second with its head down. Then it lifted its head and the motion was subtly wrong, something that simply didn’t have the grace I’d seen in the elder malk before. It faced me for a moment and then it spoke, its voice absent of anything like personality. “A pity. I would have been more useful to them as an active, covert asset.”

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (pp. 438-439). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

[Arjan]

If you are prepared to die for it. With most people torture and bribes will get you quite far. Especially if they don’t know what is happening or don’t understand. Harry changed somewhat and nearly changed a lot more if he had not gotten his act together. He is Lucky Mab’s ambitions are not as destructive as Lasciel’s who could have changed him as well.

Or again in Uriel’s interpretation it was all Harry’s free will.

[Mira]

If you are prepared to die for it. With most people torture and bribes will get you quite far. Especially if they don’t know what is happening or don’t understand. Harry changed somewhat and nearly changed a lot more if he had not gotten his act together. He is Lucky Mab’s ambitions are not as destructive as Lasciel’s who could have changed him as well.

Or again in Uriel’s interpretation it was all Harry’s free will.

But that is the point, isn't it?  Harry did get his act together when he realized he was being changed by Lasciel.  So it still holds, the only person that can change Harry, is Harry.

[Arjan]

But that is the point, isn't it?  Harry did get his act together when he realized he was being changed by Lasciel.  So it still holds, the only person that can change Harry, is Harry.

Can change you does not mean success is guaranteed. If you can make Harry change himself you have changed him

[Mira]

Can change you does not mean success is guaranteed. If you can make Harry change himself you have changed him

  The keyword is "make," isn't it.  In the end Harry still has to change himself if he chooses to, free will is still his.

[Arjan]

  The keyword is "make," isn't it.  In the end Harry still has to change himself if he chooses to, free will is still his.

Which in practice can be just a technicality

[Dina]

Well, that technicality is important, at least in the Dresdenverse.

[Arjan]

Well, that technicality is important, at least in the Dresdenverse.

For Uriel and for your final destination, not for Mab.

[The_Sibelis]

For Uriel and for your final destination, not for Mab.

Except, the stark truth of Dresden's reply actually stuck. She didn't argue the truth, or much at all on it

[Arjan]

Except, the stark truth of Dresden's reply actually stuck. She didn't argue the truth, or much at all on it

Is it?

Or is it because Mab actually liked what was happening. I think Harry had a totally wrong idea about how Mab wants to change Harry.

[Mira]

Is it?

Or is it because Mab actually liked what was happening. I think Harry had a totally wrong idea about how Mab wants to change Harry.

Mab isn't stupid, does she like someone who argues with her?  No, on a lot of levels she doesn't, but the stakes are too high now, she needs effective and not mediocre.