Author Topic: Nemesis in Storm Front?  (Read 2877 times)

Offline groinkick

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Nemesis in Storm Front?
« on: February 13, 2021, 06:55:42 PM »
I don't have the book on me right now but in the scene where Harry felt the power from the corrupted home, he began telling himself that he could bring down the White Council, and how the members were old fools. 

This may have been the stain of dark magic that he already had influencing him, or the home itself but could this have been an example of Nemesis influence?  It attemped, and failed to take over hime?
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Nemesis in Storm Front?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2021, 11:14:10 PM »
Um Starborn are immune to the influence of Nemesis.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Nemesis in Storm Front?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2021, 11:59:55 PM »
Um Starborn are immune to the influence of Nemesis.
idk, they're immune to the corruption of outsiders, not necessarily applied will or influence. Lasciel still made him suicidal, shark face still whammies him before he fought it off, Lara still makes him feel things, ect. Like, they cannot change him, but they can still use what's there to leverage against him.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Nemesis in Storm Front?
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2021, 01:15:48 AM »
Um Starborn are immune to the influence of Nemesis.

Immune?  As Sibelis pointed out, the Walker He Who Walks Before got in Harry's head.  Harry fought him off but it took effort.  He may be resistant, but immune?  I know Jim said that people can't use his Name or something like that.  Do you have any information that shows he is immune?
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline ZhonLord

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Re: Nemesis in Storm Front?
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2021, 12:08:28 PM »
Starborn cannot be Controlled or Corrupted by Outsiders, but they can still get hit with blasts of raw willpower and other short-term manipulations - hallucinating, waves of despair, illusions, nudges to look the other direction, that sort of thing. 

The important thing is that a Starborn can't be forcefully taken over (i.e.Cat Sith or Justine), or corrupted (i.e. Maeve).  They have to be seduced, convinced, recruited.

That said, going back to the OP, I think it's very likely that Nemesis / Walks Beside had a significant influence in the way that first warlock, Victor Sells, rose to power so quickly and with such dark influence.  However the dark magic itself is just corruption and temptation, that's not in and of itself an effect of Outsiders.  That's just Dark Magic, which Harry was more than a little tempted to use on multiple occasions even without Outsider influence.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Nemesis in Storm Front?
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2021, 12:48:20 PM »
Starborn cannot be Controlled or Corrupted by Outsiders, but they can still get hit with blasts of raw willpower and other short-term manipulations - hallucinating, waves of despair, illusions, nudges to look the other direction, that sort of thing. 

The important thing is that a Starborn can't be forcefully taken over (i.e.Cat Sith or Justine), or corrupted (i.e. Maeve).  They have to be seduced, convinced, recruited.

That said, going back to the OP, I think it's very likely that Nemesis / Walks Beside had a significant influence in the way that first warlock, Victor Sells, rose to power so quickly and with such dark influence.  However the dark magic itself is just corruption and temptation, that's not in and of itself an effect of Outsiders.  That's just Dark Magic, which Harry was more than a little tempted to use on multiple occasions even without Outsider influence.
We don't know that for sure. We know they have the potential to wield power over the Outsiders, and Ebenezar has stated they are unable to be tainted by the Outside. But I don't believe it has yet been stated that for a fact by a cosmic-level being for a "fact" either. Ebenezar is only human and limited in his knowledge, and clearly also keeping things back.

It might be worth examining what the difference between Outsider taint and their "manipulations" as you refer to them are - is there any real difference in touching the mind of an Outsider if going into their mind as opposed to them invading yours?

I also don't see any difference between what happened to Maeve as to what happened to Justine. The thing is - Nemesis chose not to reveal itself (and Jim didn't yet want to give it all away) at that point. But Mab even says the Adversary (another name for Nemesis) took Maeve. As far as I have read Nemesis was influencing Maeve as much as Justine, but chose not to assert full control. Perhaps because it was over-taxed already and in too many hosts, or for some other reason. Perhaps like most sleeper agents, it didn't really want to reveal itself. But most likely is that by having Maeve in the driving seat, it would have hurt Mab more but also made Mab less likely (but not unlikely) to hurt her daughter and thus succeed at it's mission.

In fact, for whatever reason, we don't know how or why Nemesis chooses it's targets. We don't know how it transmits itself from one host to another. And we don't know how many it can be in at once (although Jim has stated there is a limit).

What would Outsider "corruption" be? It can't be the madness that comes from rubbing brains with Outsiders (as Harry puts it). That's more to do with mortals not being able to comprehend them. It would have to be something intrinsic to Outsiders, a sort of radiation that sickens those who come into contact with it. Yet so far the only Outsider taint directly to supernatural beings seems to be Nemesis itself.

I don't have the book on me right now but in the scene where Harry felt the power from the corrupted home, he began telling himself that he could bring down the White Council, and how the members were old fools. 

This may have been the stain of dark magic that he already had influencing him, or the home itself but could this have been an example of Nemesis influence?  It attemped, and failed to take over hime?
Interesting idea. It's certainly possible. I don't know that Nemesis was fully formed at his point in the series. I do think that scene was significant though, particularly to the big reveals about Harry's dark side and perhaps the manipulations on him. But we probably won't know for a while yet.

In saying that, dark magic seems to be just as much a part of the universe as good magic. Outsiders seem to be their own special brand of it rather unlike the rest. But who's to say it's not related. Ultimately it's all related of course...assuming the Light (Universe) came from the "perfect darkness" as it has been described a few times in the series.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Nemesis in Storm Front?
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2021, 12:51:19 PM »
I don't have the book on me right now but in the scene where Harry felt the power from the corrupted home, he began telling himself that he could bring down the White Council, and how the members were old fools. 

This may have been the stain of dark magic that he already had influencing him, or the home itself but could this have been an example of Nemesis influence?  It attemped, and failed to take over hime?
Here is your quote from Storm Front.
Quote
And something about it, intangible, something I couldn't name, called to me. Beckoned. Here was power, power I had thrust aside once before, in the past. I had thrown away the only family I had ever known to turn away power exactly like this. world to my will, bend it and shape it to my desiring, could cut through all the petty trivialities of law and civilization and impose order where there was none, guarantee my security, my position, my future.

And what had been my reward for turning that power aside thus far? Suspicion and contempt from the very wizards I had acted to support and protect, condemnation from the White Council whose Law I had clung to when all the world had been laid at my feet.

I could kill the Shadowman, now, before he knew I was here. I could call down fury and flame on the house and kill everyone in it, not leave one stone upon another. I could reach out and embrace the dark energy he had gathered in this place, draw it in and use it for whatever I wanted, and the consequences be damned.
This was the sort of thing is threaded throughout the book as something that is a part of Harry. some of it is reflected in the Knight's mantle.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Nemesis in Storm Front?
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2021, 01:13:50 PM »
This was the sort of thing is threaded throughout the book as something that is a part of Harry. some of it is reflected in the Knight's mantle.
Indeed. Long before Harry was Winter Knight his thoughts were dark. This is why I wonder if Harry is particularly susceptible to dark influence, yet also by the same token more resistant to it as well. He has spent so long resisting he has become more able to control it than others who might not be used to such darkness. Maybe it's a fundamental part of him.

Then again, maybe JB just likes to write about that stuff and needs different allegories as he wears through them. Perhaps it's more to do with the the needs of the writing than some deeper plan. Who knows?
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Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Nemesis in Storm Front?
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2021, 04:24:58 AM »
On page 112 of PT, Eb says Outsiders can't take a starborn's free will, but we've been told that about everything. That doesn't really make a starborn special.

On page 97 Eb says that "their minds can't be magically tainted by contact with anything from Outside."

However the dark magic itself is just corruption and temptation, that's not in and of itself an effect of Outsiders.  That's just Dark Magic.
That's speculation. We don't know why Black Magic is Black Magic. It could be related to the Outside. Plenty of people here have theorized that Black Magic Taint is Outsider taint.

Harry's dealt with temptation throughout the series. At first, he appears to be dealing with Black Magic Taint(, but as groinkick points out, it might have been something else). As he gets past that, he's exposed to Lasciel. Shortly after he gets rid of Lash and starts to recover from the anger issues she was helping along, he becomes the Winter Knight. Now that he has been getting better and better at managing the mantle's influence, he's engaged to Lara.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Nemesis in Storm Front?
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2021, 05:09:26 AM »
On page 112 of PT, Eb says Outsiders can't take a starborn's free will, but we've been told that about everything. That doesn't really make a starborn special.

On page 97 Eb says that "their minds can't be magically tainted by contact with anything from Outside."
That's speculation. We don't know why Black Magic is Black Magic. It could be related to the Outside. Plenty of people here have theorized that Black Magic Taint is Outsider taint.

Harry's dealt with temptation throughout the series. At first, he appears to be dealing with Black Magic Taint(, but as groinkick points out, it might have been something else). As he gets past that, he's exposed to Lasciel. Shortly after he gets rid of Lash and starts to recover from the anger issues she was helping along, he becomes the Winter Knight. Now that he has been getting better and better at managing the mantle's influence, he's engaged to Lara.

Oh crap I forgot about this!  So does this mean that Harry...  That he is basically his own Blackstaff?  That would explain why the council would be so afraid of someone like him.  He could do all kinds of black magic, and they couldn't sense it off of him, at least I don't think so.  It wouldn't taint him like other people.  He could wield it, and not lose his mind and go all crazy.  What do you think? 
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Nemesis in Storm Front?
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2021, 05:12:41 AM »
Oh crap I forgot about this!  So does this mean that Harry...  That he is basically his own Blackstaff?  That would explain why the council would be so afraid of someone like him.  He could do all kinds of black magic, and they couldn't sense it off of him, at least I don't think so.  It wouldn't taint him like other people.  What do you think?
problem with that is we know they can sense it, even the oracle in DM can, he comments on it directly. I don't think Harry has immunity to black magic, because it's something you do, it's something you on some level choose to be a part of and magic is of your identity, your beliefs. Can't protect from yourself.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Nemesis in Storm Front?
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2021, 08:04:32 AM »
Oh crap I forgot about this!  So does this mean that Harry...  That he is basically his own Blackstaff?
Only if the theory that Black Magic Taint (BMT) is from Outside is correct.

I don't think Harry has immunity to black magic, because it's something you do, it's something you on some level choose to be a part of and magic is of your identity, your beliefs. Can't protect from yourself.
I think BMT is more than that. If that was all it was reforming your beliefs would be something the White Council considered a possibility. They'd try to reform warlocks because some of the attempts in the past would have worked. Or the stuff Harry's been told about the subject of warlocks is a big old pack of lies.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Nemesis in Storm Front?
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2021, 09:48:25 AM »
Quote
Or the stuff Harry's been told about the subject of warlocks is a big old pack of lies
well, definitely. Even what we've been told via Woj incomplete for sure, that much he's admitted. Harry's been told half truths and whole lies, if it IS connected to outside, they've hidden that, if simply because it's knowledge of the outside. There's something to the wording of that law that always makes me wonder about it's reasoning, thou shalt not seek knowledge from beyond the outer gates.. my headcanon is BMT changes you because if what it is, and those changes open you to things like Nemesis. So Harry skips the second part but is still vulnerable to the first. Hence why the warlock in PG was claiming to be a God.. he actually reminds me alot of the things in DR making a fuss. Perhaps he really WAS a God but he's stuck in a weak vessel unable to manifest more?

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Nemesis in Storm Front?
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2021, 10:02:46 PM »
Hence why the warlock in PG was claiming to be a God.. he actually reminds me alot of the things in DR making a fuss. Perhaps he really WAS a God but he's stuck in a weak vessel unable to manifest more?
That would be actually be a really interesting idea. And workable. The "god" is a being of pure spirit, it needs a physical mortal vessel to interact more with the mortal plane. Problem is it doesn't realise that it needs a lot more to be powerful in the mortal plane. Things like worship, belief, sacrifice etc. Things like weapons, symbols of power, objects to focus and amplify its power (think Mab's unicorn or Vadderung's horse/Kringle's reindeer). Gods are not just one thing. They are the combination of many things to become something far greater than the sum of it's parts. So the spirit being comes from the Outside or (if Black Magic is something of the inside) it comes from the deep Nevernever (just like that being in Day One). It is trying to create a space for itself. But it can't do much, just like Harry couldn't when he was a spirit in Ghost Story. So it needs to either break the rules (like Ghosts who go mad) or it needs to be in a physical, mortal body and try and beef up that body and it's own connection to the magic. Open up the tap more fully. The problem is it also then has to fight the mortal for control. The mortal normally loses, but as Harry has shown this doesn't always have to be this way. Perhaps that's how a lot of these beings got started.

I am not saying this is canon or anything. But I think it would be a really cool thing. 
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