The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Justin and Simon may be dead but they may also be

<< < (5/6) > >>

morriswalters:

--- Quote ---I am Mab. The stars will rain from the sky before Mab fulfills not her word.
--- End quote ---
Which I take to refer to the fall of the Outer Gates and the death of Mab.

Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: Arjan on January 27, 2021, 08:15:28 PM ---Actually Harry in Ghost Story is a pretty reliable source, Dead seems to improve your memory.

--- End quote ---
Only when you are in fact dead. Not after you return... But I was referring to how the series is Harry's recount of his life and has been shown to be an unreliable account on many, many occasions to the point where people think time-travel and parallel universes must be involved (which is quite possibly the case for at least some of the inconsistencies). Jim has also talked about how what Harry tells us is only true from his point of view, and that colors a lot of what we see and are told. This is apparent in some of the short stories. Beyond that, the next book in the series tentatively titled "Twelve Months" is going to deal with how Harry leaves out a lot from his stories as well, as there are some bits that were too traumatic for him to share.


--- Quote from: groinkick on January 27, 2021, 09:42:39 PM ---Yeah I feel like all the bad guys, and good guys know something bad is brewing.  So they are trying to build up their strength to face what's coming.  I don't know where Drakul falls into this, but even he might be afraid of Empty Night.  In the end I do think the Outside is the enemy but I don't know who it is who wants to bring them in.

--- End quote ---
I suspect even if he isn't "afraid" of Empty Night it isn't his goal. Drakul seems to want to rule the world, rather than burn it down. I think those that want to burn everything are an anarchist, perhaps loosely connected (perhaps not) group of corrupted beings/people. This Black Council type. Those that feel the system is broken, those that feel disenfranchised, those that want the end to level things out.


--- Quote from: Bad Alias on January 27, 2021, 10:07:17 PM ---Sure, but I'm just saying Justin starting a fight with Harry in order to fake his death would be something coming straight out of left field, unless we get more between now and then.

--- End quote ---
It would be I suppose - I more thought he turned a bad situation into a good one seeing an opportunity. Perhaps he wanted Dresden to kill someone and he wasn't sure how else to achieve that. I agree though, it would be a bit of a surprise. Perhaps that's why it would be a good move for Jim.


--- Quote from: morriswalters on January 28, 2021, 01:36:19 AM ---Which I take to refer to the fall of the Outer Gates and the death of Mab.

--- End quote ---
Indeed, I think a few people believe that. The significance of the stars falling hasn't been guessed at convincingly though as far as I have read around the internet.

Bad Alias:

--- Quote from: Bad Alias on January 27, 2021, 10:07:17 PM ---[Reply to Yuillegan] Sure, but I'm just saying Justin starting a fight with Harry in order to fake his death would be something coming straight out of left field, unless we get more between now and then.

--- End quote ---

--- Quote ---The child apparently murdered Justin in something very like a duel, and I am unsure if I am more frightened by the prospect that it was a deception to simulate Justin’s death — or if it wasn’t.
--- End quote ---
(From the microfiction Journal) I forgot about this line. Apparently Morgan felt Justin had reason enough to do it (fake his killing by Harry) to be haunted by the possibility. So maybe not as out of left field as I was thinking. There's some explicit groundwork for it already. And I can think of reasons myself now.

As has been mentioned repeatedly both here and in the series, Harry has been shaped. One of the ways that's pointed out is how he has been shaped to use magic for violence. That might have been one reason Justin would deceive Harry into thinking he killed him.

But wouldn't Justin not have done that because he was shaping Harry for a purpose, knew the Wardens would show up, and likely kill Harry, thus wasting all that work? No. He knew Margaret. Margaret and McCoy's relationship isn't as secret as Harry and McCoy seem to think. Odin, Gatekeeper, Arianna, and Morgan all knew. Presumably Luccio as well the way Morgan mentions it in his journal. Morgan knew that McCoy wouldn't allow the Council to simply execute Harry. Justin could have reasonably known everything to deduce that as well. Further, he likely would have known Harry would have be given over to McCoy who would teach him lessons that would make Harry more likely to use magic for violence. Harry chose his way of life in large part because of McCoy's teachings. It wouldn't take much for Harry to end up fighting all sorts of things with magic.


--- Quote ---Given what is at stake, it would have been better to remove the child from play — but the Blackstaff couldn’t let his daughter’s son be neutralized.
--- End quote ---
Also from Journal.

In the early books, Harry didn't do much fighting. He mostly helped other people figure stuff out. Find lost items. Point the police in the right direction. Help people who found out they had magic deal with it and get control. Something where he fought with magic was the extreme exception. Then his first two cases happen. They could have been set up explicitly to get him involved to the point he would have to use magic for violence. If Sells hadn't gone after Harry violently and directly, Harry would have left him to Murphy. Harry has been pushed into positions where he couldn't just call the Council or the cops repeatedly. That may have been the primary point of FM. In SF, we can at least guess that the point was to test the bloodline curse, but what was the point of FM?

Harry being shaped by all these forces might answer the question why all these things happen in Chicago. Because Harry is there. If Harry was somewhere else, the powers manipulating Harry would have made sure things happened there as well. Or, if Chicago itself was important, they may shaped Harry's decision to settle there.

I'm not saying that Justin provoked Harry into a fight to fake his death to put Harry on a path that would make him comfortable using magic for violence happened. I'm saying that Jim has laid the groundwork for it. It wouldn't be poor writing at this point to have Justin show up for those reasons. It wouldn't be what I think of as a "cheat" twist. The evidence is there for it to be predicted.

Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: Bad Alias on February 01, 2021, 03:26:53 AM ---(From the microfiction Journal) I forgot about this line. Apparently Morgan felt Justin had reason enough to do it (fake his killing by Harry) to be haunted by the possibility. So maybe not as out of left field as I was thinking. There's some explicit groundwork for it already. And I can think of reasons myself now.

--- End quote ---
Weird. I totally forgot that but it's nice to feel a little vindicated. Although perhaps Jim is leaving himself options too. And Morgan clearly thinks that a 16 year old murdering a warden like Justin is very scary - with an implication that Harry might be a terrible threat but unrealised most of the time. However, from what we get it overall it seems more likely to me that Justin faked his death. But that doesn't discount Harry the terrible monster either.


--- Quote ---As has been mentioned repeatedly both here and in the series, Harry has been shaped. One of the ways that's pointed out is how he has been shaped to use magic for violence. That might have been one reason Justin would deceive Harry into thinking he killed him.
--- End quote ---
I was just discussing this in the "Why didn't Drakul..." thread. I think the shaping is very important to who and what Harry is. And clearly it's been done by more than just the villains - almost everyone involved who is a player seem to do this. He Who Walks Behind, Justin, Cowl, Drakul even use combat as a lesson. But I would argue that Lea, Mab, Vadderung, the Erlking and even Uriel seem to try and mould Harry just as much.


--- Quote ---But wouldn't Justin not have done that because he was shaping Harry for a purpose, knew the Wardens would show up, and likely kill Harry, thus wasting all that work? No. He knew Margaret. Margaret and McCoy's relationship isn't as secret as Harry and McCoy seem to think. Odin, Gatekeeper, Arianna, and Morgan all knew. Presumably Luccio as well the way Morgan mentions it in his journal. Morgan knew that McCoy wouldn't allow the Council to simply execute Harry. Justin could have reasonably known everything to deduce that as well. Further, he likely would have known Harry would have be given over to McCoy who would teach him lessons that would make Harry more likely to use magic for violence. Harry chose his way of life in large part because of McCoy's teachings. It wouldn't take much for Harry to end up fighting all sorts of things with magic.
--- End quote ---
I agree...I think. If I understand you right, Justin wasn't all that worried that his hard work would be wasted and merely adapted (if not planned for) a change in the situation. Maybe it didn't go the exact way he wanted but I think he had already done enough. This seems to be what Ancient Mai was worried about in Summer Knight when considering whether to strip him of his wizard's title.


--- Quote ---Also from Journal.

In the early books, Harry didn't do much fighting. He mostly helped other people figure stuff out. Find lost items. Point the police in the right direction. Help people who found out they had magic deal with it and get control. Something where he fought with magic was the extreme exception. Then his first two cases happen. They could have been set up explicitly to get him involved to the point he would have to use magic for violence. If Sells hadn't gone after Harry violently and directly, Harry would have left him to Murphy. Harry has been pushed into positions where he couldn't just call the Council or the cops repeatedly. That may have been the primary point of FM. In SF, we can at least guess that the point was to test the bloodline curse, but what was the point of FM?
--- End quote ---
Perhaps you are right. In any case, the result was Harry became far more concerned with outside events and dealt with them violently and severe prejudice. As Marcone has remarked before, it's a reasonable thing to expect an enemy of Harry Dresden's to end up dead. Even someone who just crossed his way.


--- Quote ---Harry being shaped by all these forces might answer the question why all these things happen in Chicago. Because Harry is there. If Harry was somewhere else, the powers manipulating Harry would have made sure things happened there as well. Or, if Chicago itself was important, they may shaped Harry's decision to settle there.
--- End quote ---
Ooh interesting idea. That either he was pushed into Chicago or he brings far more to Chicago than he realised. I'd say it's a bit of both.


--- Quote ---I'm not saying that Justin provoked Harry into a fight to fake his death to put Harry on a path that would make him comfortable using magic for violence happened. I'm saying that Jim has laid the groundwork for it. It wouldn't be poor writing at this point to have Justin show up for those reasons. It wouldn't be what I think of as a "cheat" twist. The evidence is there for it to be predicted.
--- End quote ---
Agreed. The appropriate groundwork is there for a Justin return. How elegantly that happens and how satisfying it is depends a lot on how Jim chooses to bring Justin back. I more think the faked death just coincided with the plan for Harry, not that it was a critical part of it. But who knows? Although I will say this, perhaps Justin's own trick is partly what Vadderung is referencing when Harry "dies".

Bad Alias:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on February 01, 2021, 01:04:33 PM ---I totally forgot that but it's nice to feel as little vindicated.

--- End quote ---
It's probably nicer than knowing I can admit I was wrong.  ;)

I think it's more likely Harry killed Justin than Justin faked his death, but I definitely don't think it should be dismissed.


--- Quote from: Yuillegan on February 01, 2021, 01:04:33 PM ---And clearly it's been done by more than just the villains - almost everyone involved who is a player seem to do this. He Who Walks Behind, Justin, Cowl, Drakul even use combat as a lesson. But I would argue that Lea, Mab, Vadderung, the Erlking and even Uriel seem to try and mould Harry just as much.

--- End quote ---
Yeah.


--- Quote from: Yuillegan on February 01, 2021, 01:04:33 PM ---I agree...I think. If I understand you right, Justin wasn't all that worried that his hard work would be wasted and merely adapted (if not planned for) a change in the situation.
--- End quote ---
I don't think it was a change in Justin's plans, under that theory. I'm not saying I buy the theory. I'm just saying it's a theory that explains how Jim could plausibly and believably pull off a Justin isn't dead storyline. And it's not the only believable way Jim could bring Justin back.


--- Quote from: Yuillegan on February 01, 2021, 01:04:33 PM ---I'd say it's a bit of both.
--- End quote ---
Usually a better answer than one explanation when the two explanations aren't mutually exclusive.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page