The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Why is Marcone such a heavy magical hitter?
Mira:
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on December 07, 2020, 05:29:11 AM ---@morris Nic does have magical chops though. He pulls off that plague curse by simply having a battery and he uses the barbarus curse against Harry too. Why he doesn't use magic can be contested, but he is capable.
You somehow assume the power Merlin got was free...?
--- End quote ---
There are some things you can do even if you are vanilla if you have the right tools and recipe to pull them off. Everyone has enough juice for that, that is why some things are kept secret and locked up. Calling up an Outsider doesn't require a lot of juice, just the right ritual. The same with the plague curse, without the Shroud [even it was a copy] provided juice to power the curse, I don't think Nic needed any magical talent for that, just knowledge. Same with the circle for Butters in Dead Beat, once Harry showed him how to make it, it didn't take much to power it. That is why messing with such things are dangerous to play with, like keeping loaded guns sitting around, it doesn't take a lot of power to pull a trigger or knowledge to set one off.
morriswalters:
If I thought Jim kept good notes and was actually aware of what he had written over time I might give more weight to what he says versus what he puts on the page. It's one thing to write a six book series, quite another to write a 26 book series. Is this point in dispute?
In terms of magic the WOJ's are so vague as to permit magic from anyone or everyone. I'm not disputing that. But whatever talents the Fallen have act through their hosts connection to the coins. They don't imbue any permanent change in the host. So if a host uses magic given to him by the Fallen then if he puts down the coin does he retain the magic? Can Marcone launch magic fireballs if he lays down the coin? The canon that Jim has laid down is that the Fallen corrupt with power and that by giving up the coin that you give up the power. And now we are to believe that Marcone up and exercised advanced magic after a lifetime of not having it, because, why?
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on December 07, 2020, 05:29:11 AM ---@morris Nic does have magical chops though. He pulls off that plague curse by simply having a battery and he uses the barbarus curse against Harry too. Why he doesn't use magic can be contested, but he is capable.
You somehow assume the power Merlin got was free...?
--- End quote ---
He pulls off the Plague Curse by the use of a ritual just like Madge. Only two Fallen have used magic directly, Cassius and Namshiel. Nic says this at the end of Small Favor.
--- Quote from: Nic in Small Favor ---so Tessa has lost her sorcery teacher
--- End quote ---
This would seem to imply that all the Fallen don't know human magic out of the box. I don't assume anything about the source of his knowledge precisely, but one popular theory is that Vadderung trained Merlin. I mean he certainly didn't go to Hogwarts. Vadderung has only given one thing up for free.
Arjan:
Cassius lost his everlasting youth and started to age when he lost the coin but Harry can probably still use that trick to suppress pain Lash learned him.
All the fallen seem to have very specific things they can or are willing to give, lend or teach. They have different characters.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Arjan on December 07, 2020, 02:20:46 PM ---Cassius lost his everlasting youth and started to age when he lost the coin but Harry can probably still use that trick to suppress pain Lash learned him.
All the fallen seem to have very specific things they can or are willing to give, lend or teach. They have different characters.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, I don't think for Namshiel to do his thing, Marcone has to have any magical talent. The fact that he has been a member of the Accords and around magical types enough to understand what's going on, is enough for Namshiel to use him for his purposes.
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on December 07, 2020, 01:50:56 PM ---If I thought Jim kept good notes and was actually aware of what he had written over time I might give more weight to what he says versus what he puts on the page. It's one thing to write a six book series, quite another to write a 26 book series. Is this point in dispute?
--- End quote ---
And that's why I don't say you are wrong, but instead that I'm of a different opinion and only think you are wrong. :)
--- Quote from: morriswalters on December 07, 2020, 01:50:56 PM ---But whatever talents the Fallen have act through their hosts connection to the coins. They don't imbue any permanent change in the host. So if a host uses magic given to him by the Fallen then if he puts down the coin does he retain the magic?
--- End quote ---
A problem with coming to any firm conclusions on this one is that we really only have Harry's experience with a shadow and Cassius's aging. Cassius's magic doesn't seem to be any different than when he had the coin. He just doesn't have eternal youth and the Denarian battle form. Harry had a couple of things from Lash that are gone and some things that aren't. He doesn't have a photographic memory or the ability to understand and speak Sumerian or Etruscan. He does have the pain management technique. (I know I'm leaving stuff out). So we know some things stay and others don't. Cassius's aging is actually an example of both. If the advantage went away immediately, he'd be like the guy who "chose poorly" from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. If the advantage just stayed, he would have started aging normally, not at an accelerated rate.
So what do we do with this? We guess. I tend to think that if Marcone has the coin for long enough, and he practices magic long enough, he will develop as an extremely skilled minor talent. I don't think he'd ever have a lot of juice (excepting things like eating ghosts for power), but I do think he'd develop something.
I do think Marcone is the type of person with a strong enough will and the planning skills that he will extract enough information from Namshiel that he will be able to get along without the coin. Both methods of acquiring an independent source of magic and, if he holds the coin long enough, a source of eternal youth. Marcone isn't one to remain dependent on any one source of power.
Nothing in the books really explains how magic talent really works. Is it a muscle everyone has to some degree? If the supernatural was widely known, would most people be very minor practitioners?
--- Quote from: Mira on December 07, 2020, 01:05:37 PM ---Same with the circle for Butters in Dead Beat, once Harry showed him how to make it, it didn't take much to power it.
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At first, you'd think this would answer my question, but it doesn't. It's Butter's blood that powers the circle. A practitioner can power the circle with the power of his mind. In the strictest sense, Butters is doing magic, but I don't think that qualifies him as a practitioner.
--- Quote from: morriswalters on December 07, 2020, 01:50:56 PM ---one popular theory is that Vadderung trained Merlin. I mean he certainly didn't go to Hogwarts. Vadderung has only given one thing up for free.
--- End quote ---
It's stated in the books that Merlin was taught by Odin. I can't remember if it was one of the legends listed by Harry about him, or something Eb said. If Eb said it, I'm going with it's about as confirmed as anything else in the books.
What was the only thing that Vadderung gave up for free? He gave Harry some free advice in Changes and then he helped at Chichen Itza. (On a side note, just because Harry doesn't pay a price, doesn't mean it was free or without a price. Like how Harry doesn't always pay a price for Lea's help because Margaret did).
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