Author Topic: Why is Marcone such a heavy magical hitter?  (Read 15861 times)

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Why is Marcone such a heavy magical hitter?
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2020, 12:56:11 AM »
Harry sees himself as weaker and less skillful, some of that is modesty and insecurity, a lot has to do with his own admission that he has been lazy over the years.  That is where Molly becoming his apprentice was one of the best things that ever happened to him in his growth as a wizard.  One of the huge areas where his skills have improved ten fold is his ability to make a veil.
He says he was lazy, yet he also goes on and on about how he loves magic for magic's sake and does it in his spare time. Also, not sure his veil has improved. Read the one in Skin Game and the one in Fool Moon. Basically the same.

One of the things to remember about Marcone's new power level is that Thorned Namshiel got his ass handed to him when Harry accidentally used soulfire to create a giant hand, which Harry used to throw the demon sorcerer around like he was a rag doll.  Harry won't want to exhaust himself by doing something like that again, and Thorned Namshiel will probably have a defense against the same thing happening again, but that doesn't preclude Harry from coming up with something equally, or nearly equally, devastating if less taxing. 

Plus, Harry's experience with using magic is far wider than Marcone's.  The Baron of Chicago won't be as easily suckered as Hannah Asher was, but when it comes to using magic, Harry should be able think outside the box and be more effective then Marcone.   
Agreed.

1 Jim hasn't broken any of his magical rules to date... Any denarian has a battle form which is an excellent usage of shape shifting. Namshiel is simply more finesse than that. Anyone is capable of magic after all, the denarians is just filling in for the inability to sense it. I'm not particularly fond of this plot of Marcone becoming better at magic than Harry, but I don't think it breaks anything but my ability to suspend my disbelief.
He does sometimes. He also breaks his narrative rules. There are several threads on inconsistencies and such throughout. Traditionally, following the Sanderson-esque ideas a "hard" magic system is one that has detailed, clear and consistent rules similar to a science. These are explained to the reader in the narrative. A soft magic system is one that is designed to create a sense of wonder and is limited in how much detail is given to the reader. But both tend to use it to further the plot or even just the scene - it's more a problem solving or problem creating tool for the author. A "hard" magic system is a bit more believable because it gives the reader clear expectations and so we can suspend disbelief. A soft magic system can only achieve a suspension of disbelief by not having the reader think to much about the mechanics and focus on the emotion and tempo of the scene. Classic examples of a "hard" magic system is maybe Eragon, Lightbringer, Mistborn, even Codex Alera. Examples of "soft" magic systems include Harry Potter, ASOIAF, Dark Tower. Lord of the Rings could be soft but as we never get much exposition at all about it it's hard to say. Then there are the "hybrid" systems.

Jim writes his stories like they have a "hard" magic system but then he goes off and changes the rules or breaks them.
Example 1: Wards on the Tower on Demonreach. Magic has limits on how much energy can be placed in an object yet as Bob explains somehow Merlin didn't worry about that.
Example 2: Water grounds out magical energy. Doesn't bother the Fomor, Titania, or LtW. If it were so easy to shut down magic Ethniu wouldn't have been a threat.
Example 3: Circle's keep out anything spiritual. Uriel says to Dresden that the circle he creates wouldn't be an issue to him.
Example 4: Every human has the potential for magic, but not all mortals are strong enough to be Sorcerers or Wizards. These beings live for hundreds of years and have access to much greater powers and can perform more complex and powerful magic. If a mortal even has the slightest hint beyond the normal, a practioner can tell by touching them. Harry has definitely made contact with Marcone over the years and got nothing. Yet when Marcone takes up Namshiel's Coin he has enough power to outclass Quintus Cassius and perhaps even Tessa. Even Nicodemus doesn't appear to just become a Sorcerer just because he has a Coin. Yet Marcone seems to be almost as strong as Harry and perhaps more skillful. Certainly his knowledge base will end up being deeper and broader, and Marcone is FAR more pragmatic and power hungry.

There are more but there's a few to get you started. Jim's fine to break or change things if he needs to but you can't really pretend it's a "hard" magic system if it isn't. Especially at the upper levels where according to Jim if you have enough power you can basically rewrite reality however you wish.


Marcone has no magic.  Namshiel has magic.  If that isn't true then Jim has broken his rules. You either manifest the talent or you don't.  And if you have it and if you don't use it, you lose it.  The danger of using the Fallen was hashed out over and over again during Lash's run in the plot. The more you depend on them the more you are diminished. Am I misreading Jim's rules?
Except all the Fallen have magic. That's kind of the point isn't it? They are still Fallen after all. I agree that Marcone suddenly having magic is weird and seems to break the rules. I don't think the Fallen can really give you anything you don't have, a part from knowledge. That was the implication with Hellfire after all. If the Fallen could just give out magic then all the Denarians would be far more dangerous and effective - as they seemed to be in Death Masks. I mean, the Genoskwa basically took the place of Ursiel and Jim actually both foreshadowed it in Skin Game. I probably should have seen the return of Ursiel coming and being the Coin for the Genoskwa. Imagine if all the Fallen were shape-shifting nightmares with the sorcerous capability of at least Mavra if not Corpsetaker or Cowl. Dresden and co. would be long dead (except for the Knights - they have that special "we're holy so no matter what everything's equal" thing).

Sometimes Jim’s rules are not about what always happens but just what happens most of the time. But in this case I think the magic is Namshiel.

Namshiel should be able to teach Marcone some magic if he provides the missing bits. The power and the ability to see it. Butters could do some things with Bob helping. But what happened in battle ground was just too advanced. I am also not sure when Harry was talking to Marcone and when he talked to Namshiel. I think at the end he was talking to Namshiel because Marcone had never difficulty with long term planning.
See above what I said to Morris, but in general I agree. I think it just means that we have to assume that Marcone has somehow had hidden latent talent all along, and managed to hide it from Harry. Namshiel is just getting the absolute best out of him.

You can tell when he talks to Namshiel or Marcone as quite literally the voice changes. Dresden was talking to Marcone. Doesn't mean Namshiel wasn't listening and maybe even influencing Marcone.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Why is Marcone such a heavy magical hitter?
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2020, 01:22:57 AM »
Breaking the plot isn't breaking the rules if your talking about say, the car outside bock's changing or Morts house switching around..
But #1 not sure which bit your referring to here? But DR is already breaking space/time so idk how effective reality is at defining it. Perhaps it's a domain unto itself (like the train station in the matrix, the rules are not the same)
#2 water grounds out magic, what grounds out most forms of magic, but why would it ground out itself? The fomor are water mages. They work with it specifically. This is an addendum to the rules not a deviation from them.
#3 this us specifically covered in FM, archangels require a greater circle to contain, my assumption is because they have a human in the mix but idk. Point being a regular circle cannot contain one, and Harry wasn't even using anything physically real to form the circle as leverage. It would have directly been will against will. Even if Harry thought to make a greater circle in his mind someone like Uriel can still break right through Harry. Which at the end of the day is all a circle is, an extension and manifestation of someone's will.
#4 we really don't know enough about the situation to say for sure. Like I said I don't like Marcone being a magical powerhouse but that's more to do with his skill level than him actually having magic. However we know of one situation where right now there is no magic, and yet magic could grow. Charity. She doesn't register as a practitioner to Harry, because she's not. But isn't Woj that she could take up her power again even though it wouldn't be to a great effect? (because of her person power always being small) Marcone made a choice when he was younger imo, perhaps part of that choice locked away his magical potential?

*The choice I refer to is when the Beckett shooting happened. He used to have Summer Hunter's green eyes before they became dollars bills. Perhaps Marcone had some supernatural potential he never knew he squandered in his youth?

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Why is Marcone such a heavy magical hitter?
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2020, 02:00:55 AM »
Breaking the plot isn't breaking the rules if your talking about say, the car outside bock's changing or Morts house switching around..
But #1 not sure which bit your referring to here? But DR is already breaking space/time so idk how effective reality is at defining it. Perhaps it's a domain unto itself (like the train station in the matrix, the rules are not the same)
#2 water grounds out magic, what grounds out most forms of magic, but why would it ground out itself? The fomor are water mages. They work with it specifically. This is an addendum to the rules not a deviation from them.
#3 this us specifically covered in FM, archangels require a greater circle to contain, my assumption is because they have a human in the mix but idk. Point being a regular circle cannot contain one, and Harry wasn't even using anything physically real to form the circle as leverage. It would have directly been will against will. Even if Harry thought to make a greater circle in his mind someone like Uriel can still break right through Harry. Which at the end of the day is all a circle is, an extension and manifestation of someone's will.
#4 we really don't know enough about the situation to say for sure. Like I said I don't like Marcone being a magical powerhouse but that's more to do with his skill level than him actually having magic. However we know of one situation where right now there is no magic, and yet magic could grow. Charity. She doesn't register as a practitioner to Harry, because she's not. But isn't Woj that she could take up her power again even though it wouldn't be to a great effect? (because of her person power always being small) Marcone made a choice when he was younger imo, perhaps part of that choice locked away his magical potential?

*The choice I refer to is when the Beckett shooting happened. He used to have Summer Hunter's green eyes before they became dollars bills. Perhaps Marcone had some supernatural potential he never knew he squandered in his youth?
I wasn't referring to the apparent universe inconsistencies such as Mort's house - these could be parallel universe hints. Merely Jim retconning and reinventing the origins of the Black Court or Drakul, or saying Ortega is 600 hundred years old when he can only be 500, Mab being as powerful as an Archangel according to Lea (even when she clearly would know that isn't true) etc.
#1 Indeed, Demonreach isn't bound to the normal rules. But that's the point too. If you create rules and then just say "you can break them when it suits" then it isn't really a hard magic system. Dresden is more a hybrid system.
#2 Energy is energy, so it shouldn't matter. But Ethniu isn't a water mage, why not just blast her with a water canon etc? Point is, water is only as effective at stopping magic as Jim needs it to be for the story.
#3 You're confusing the two circles. In Changes, Harry creates a circle around him to keep spiritual energy out (i.e. Uriel). This is something done over and over and the rules are consistent in the books. Harry wasn't trying to bind or trap Uriel inside a circle, he was keeping Uriel on the outside of his own circle. But while you're discussing it - the point of Free Will is that it gives you the ability to contest the Will of anything. Harry contested MW (who is at the Uriel level). So his chance isn't great for trapping Uriel, but not zero either. That's an important distinction. Otherwise he wouldn't have been able to trap Ethniu.
#4 The point that I and others are making is that you can only fill a glass to the top, once you get to the top that's it. Even with Namshiel should Marcone really have as much magical brawn as he does? He never seemed to have much foundation to begin with. But as I said earlier, there are multiple different ways to explain it that still fit within the rules. It's the new canon now. See, your Charity example is exactly the kind of inconsistency I am talking about. She has such little magic right now Harry can't even sense it should he touch her (although come to think of it I can hardly remember too many instances early on where Harry and her touch). The WOJ that you mention then contradicts that, as it implies that she still has enough potential to take up the Art. Jim forgets his own rules, or changes them as he needs.

Certainly an interesting thought about his origins. I believe there was a theory long ago about the Erlking being his father...

Offline vincentric

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Re: Why is Marcone such a heavy magical hitter?
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2020, 02:39:16 AM »
I don't see Marcone as a magical powerhouse. The things he did take knowledge and practice but not necessarily a lot of power.

He really only did three things.

He made shields that fell apart from one blow from Ethniu. Harry even comments that they're not strong but they are multi-layered and he can do them fast.

He did the teleport. It took him a few moments to set it up and it was fixed to teo points fairly near to one another Again Harry knows that this magic exists, but he doesn't have the knowledge to pull it off.  It must be within his power or the WC wouldn't have blocked the books from him until it trusted his decision making .

Finally, he made the teacup. Again what he did takes knowledge, not power. It's not much different from Ramirez's dissolve attack which Harry says takes little energy.

Frankly I think Marcone is on the same magic level as Butters. Namshiel however is a better teacher than Bob. He has more knowledge and is able to put that knowledge directly into Marcone's thoughts instead of verbally. Butters had Bob for just under two years and couldn't use him 24/7. Namshiel has been with Marcone for 6 years and can teach him in his sleep.

Lash was able to take perfect memories, interpret languages and show Harry how to break spells and gave Harry all this in dribbles as they contested with each other. Marcone willingly took up the coin. He is getting everything Namshiel is willing to give him as fast as he can handle it and Namshiel is supposedly the best magician of the Denarians.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Why is Marcone such a heavy magical hitter?
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2020, 04:25:10 AM »
#1 I think it's just a misunderstanding of the rules. Here for instance, it's Woj that with enough magic you can do anything. Merlin clearly had access to godlike power there.
#2 do we know Ethniu doesn't have an affinity for water magic? She does live under water I believe?
#3 true. The point with Uriel being if he wanted to test Harry's will he knew he could shatter it before Harry could summon his against him.
#4 with considerations to his denarian status and and extreme amount of cooperation with his fallen, I don't think he's too overpowered. It was his knowledge and ability with it that shocked me. I personally think he ironed out an actual deal with Namshiel so that what he got was very specific and unabridged. Namshiel aided him to the max for the showdown.
Another thing though... Is I think he was tapped by the end. And that's part of the equation of why he didn't fight Dresden for the eye, he would have had to resort to purely physical attacks and it's not what he's been preparing for with Dresden.. what he did with Ethniu, is exactly what he's been preparing for. To fight an overpowering opponent using minimal effort. As we've seen with Carlos recently, high level magic doesn't necessarily cost a lot to do.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Why is Marcone such a heavy magical hitter?
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2020, 04:56:41 PM »
Quote
Except all the Fallen have magic. That's kind of the point isn't it? They are still Fallen after all. I agree that Marcone suddenly having magic is weird and seems to break the rules. I don't think the Fallen can really give you anything you don't have, a part from knowledge. That was the implication with Hellfire after all.
If any one of the Fallen would or could have been a magical talent then Nicodemus would have been one. He was alive since the time of Christ, and that's a long time to practice. Like Harry they can't be doing dirty work all the time.  Hell, Nic and his SO made time to bump uglies and have a child. But the story has always been that they can't directly use their Angelic power, so in the case of Thorned Namshiel he had to call on Lucifer to make the barrier in Small Favor. Namshiel was always an outlier. Jim pulls him out of thin air, cripples him and finally kills him, with absolutely indication of who or what his host was.  No other Fallen has two names, unless I'm having a senior moment this morning. Nor, in as much as I can remember, has any angel or angelic character had two names.
Quote
#1 I think it's just a misunderstanding of the rules. Here for instance, it's Woj that with enough magic you can do anything. Merlin clearly had access to godlike power there.
Merlin is the International Man Of Mystery. Or an Urban Legend.  As such, you can attribute to him anything that comes to mind.  But ending up with Godlike powers in the era of the Round Table seems like a stretch. And assuming that he was taught this magic by someone like Vadderung leaves you to explain why such a powerful character would give it away for free, when in the present they won't tell him diddly without asking him to pull out his metaphysical wallet and pony up. Or tell him to shut up and wait for it.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Why is Marcone such a heavy magical hitter?
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2020, 07:02:51 PM »
 “Thorned” is not a name, it is just an adjective telling something about Namshiel. I do not think all fallen are that good at magic or at least they don’t bother with it. 
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Offline Mira

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Re: Why is Marcone such a heavy magical hitter?
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2020, 07:31:35 PM »
Quote
He says he was lazy, yet he also goes on and on about how he loves magic for magic's sake and does it in his spare time. Also, not sure his veil has improved. Read the one in Skin Game and the one in Fool Moon. Basically the same.

No, perhaps the how to etc is the same, but Harry's skill at doing them has gotten much better
since Fool Moon.  He didn't like doing them and flat out said he wasn't good at them.  Now he does
them without thinking.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Why is Marcone such a heavy magical hitter?
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2020, 10:41:06 PM »
Harry is constantly described as a fanatical magic nerd by literally everyone except Harry himself. Saying he coasts in any way directly contradicts the books. Harry thinks of himself as a magical blunt object, but that's just his own perception of himself—and it's what Mab is trying to get him to embrace with her "training".

Especially in the earlier books, we get lots of focus on how Harry's only hobby is perfecting his magical skills, and how he's a magical expert. Whenever his relative skill level compared to other wizards comes up, it is pointed out that he's considered "too young to be taken seriously". At the same time, we see him constantly tinker with and come up with new spells, the occasional potion, better, shinier enchantments, and hellishly complicated voodoo representations of entire cities.

Thinking that Harry doesn't focus on training and learning means fundamentally misunderstanding the character. He's obsessed.
I agree with all of this. To add to it, Harry is also often described as better than others or more advanced than most at his age. Most of the ones I can remember are in the middle of the series. Luccio is impressed with Sue (and so is the Erlking). Ramirez admits Harry's a better wizard than him in a fight, after Harry has been tortured a good bit. Bob is impressed with Little Chicago. Elaine is impressed with his shield bracelet. He's a more versatile wizard than Ramirez even if Ramirez is more fine tuned (again). Hanna Ascher is really good at one thing. Fire.

And yet we constantly get shown how every magic user in the series is better then him.

...

Literally every Magic-user in the series has absolutely rocketed past Harry in terms of skills in the past 4-5 books or so. The only thing Harry can do is make a bigger boom.
The only thing we get constantly shown is Harry doesn't have the best control or focus, but it gets better in almost every book. Marcone is the only one who isn't on the Senior Council who looks like he just plain outclasses Harry. And Harry has repeatedly described Marcone as the scariest and most competent opponent he has.

Early Harry says he's gòod at tracking spells.
Molly -Harry's apprentice with a fraction of the experience- tells us 10 books later that he sucks at it.
That's because he had the training wheels on for Molly. Harry does something similar to what Molly's doing in SF and Something Borrowed. Molly assumes he can't do it because she hasn't seen him do it.

Same with Carlos, who is again, far less experienced than Harry, and yet he can pull things apart from the atomic level for no effort, and all Harry has learned to do is explode things bigger.
Carlos is more fine tuned and really good at that one trick, but he admits Harry's better in DB and Harry thinks about how Carlos is more of a just a fighter than Harry in WN.

How about Luccio? We see her from back during her young and reckless days, and she can already do those lazer beams without a focus, whereas in Changes Harry struggles to do one with a focus.
Luccio was at least in her late 70's the first time, chronologically, we see her.

Quote
Jim: “She can barely remember the War of 1812 (which puts her in the same category with most modern American students), but it was of no interest to her at the time, growing up in southern Italy.”

...

May 31, 1883: A Fistful of Warlocks

his own admission that he has been lazy over the years.
When does he claim that he is lazy?

Marcone has no magic.  Namshiel has magic.  If that isn't true then Jim has broken his rules. You either manifest the talent or you don't.  And if you have it and if you don't use it, you lose it.  ... Am I misreading Jim's rules?
I think you are. (I could be wrong because he's been vague on this point). I'm pretty sure everyone has some level of magical talent. The biggest thing that separates practitioners, especially small time practitioners, from everyone else is the ability to sense magic.

Offline Mira

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Re: Why is Marcone such a heavy magical hitter?
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2020, 11:15:12 PM »
Quote
When does he claim that he is lazy?

He doesn't have to, he just doesn't apply himself as much as he might.  He is like a lot of bright people, especially when they are young, but he is learning.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Why is Marcone such a heavy magical hitter?
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2020, 01:00:29 AM »
He doesn't have to [claim to be lazy].
So he didn't?

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Why is Marcone such a heavy magical hitter?
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2020, 02:28:13 AM »
Quote
I think you are. (I could be wrong because he's been vague on this point). I'm pretty sure everyone has some level of magical talent. The biggest thing that separates practitioners, especially small time practitioners, from everyone else is the ability to sense magic.
Charity had magic and gave it up.  So use it or lose it.  But no one in the books ever gained magic in their 40's. None of Molly's family, not Butters nor anyone else. No minor practitioners ever made the jump to the big time.  When Harry soul gazed him there was no indication that he was a practitioner.  And  Jim has Harry name him as a vanilla mortal. Jim can do as he pleases, he gets the paycheck,  but it is what it is.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Why is Marcone such a heavy magical hitter?
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2020, 04:28:57 AM »
Charity had magic and gave it up.  So use it or lose it.  But no one in the books ever gained magic in their 40's. None of Molly's family, not Butters nor anyone else. No minor practitioners ever made the jump to the big time.  When Harry soul gazed him there was no indication that he was a practitioner.  And  Jim has Harry name him as a vanilla mortal. Jim can do as he pleases, he gets the paycheck,  but it is what it is.
The fallen do give the hosts powers they don’t had before, not just a little knowledge and education, and the kind of power differs from coin to coin.

They can do things with their fallen they could not do before and in Marcones case that is some magic stuff.
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Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Why is Marcone such a heavy magical hitter?
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2020, 04:40:54 AM »
How old was Victor Sells? His power seems to come out of nowhere or increase all of a sudden.

Quote
If Charity had been possessed of a monster gift, of [sic] if she’d been constantly around and involved in magic during the course of the pregnancy, it would have been more difficult for her to reduce it to practically zero like that.  But instead, she was making a deliberate and willful choice to deny her children’s potential a chance to find a chance to take root and bloom.

Maybe her kids, if they wanted, could go out and work hard and stir up a latent talent.  A watershed sort of life event might do something along those lines–shake them up enough to jump-start a dormant gift.  But then, that’s most of humanity in the Dresden Files, really.  Everyone has some kind of ability, if they just want to look hard enough to find it.  That’s where the Alpha’s came from.
Emphasis added.

Having the magic nerd fallen angel is probably the exact sort of thing mentioned in that paragraph to jump-start a dormant gift. Combine that with the efficient use vs. raw power aspect, and I don't find Marcone being impressive surprising at all.

We've also seen how quickly Harry can learn things from Lash, the shadow of a Denarian he's choosing to not utilize. If Marcone is fully cooperating with Namshiel, he might not even need to learn magic. Namshiel might just be able to do spells for Marcone like Lash did Sumerian and Etruscan for Marcone.

There's a lot of relevant WoJ quotes in the link below. Ctrl+f "talent" and you'll find them easily. Jim even talks about the use or loose it and what it would take to try to get it back. Like I said before, he's equivocal.
https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-magic-in-the-dresden-files-part-2/

I know you avoid WoJ and discount it a lot. That's fine. Death of the Author and all that. However, in the absence of the books being dispositive in the other direction, I generally credit it.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Why is Marcone such a heavy magical hitter?
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2020, 05:29:11 AM »
@morris Nic does have magical chops though. He pulls off that plague curse by simply having a battery and he uses the barbarus curse against Harry too. Why he doesn't use magic can be contested, but he is capable.
You somehow assume the power Merlin got was free...?