The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Zoo day

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Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: CrusherJen on December 02, 2020, 05:59:33 AM ---But that assumes Harry is obsessed with Wizarding duties 24/7, and I find that wholly and completely unrealistic. Harry deserves a personal life, as much as anyone else with an extremely important job. Sure, there may be some tradeoffs in some areas, but I wouldn't dismiss raising a daughter (who is also a potential wizard and if so, will benefit from seeing a good example) as unimportant or meaningless. As the short story "The Warrior" reminds us, the battle of good and evil is fought on many different levels, from huge battles to small, seemingly insignificant interactions between people. So loving and spending time with Maggie can be a contribution, as much as slinging spells or swinging a staff. It's certainly proven a strong motivation for him to fight for the world, and to win. What image did Harry hold on to in order to withstand Ethniu's attack of Will? Holding Maggie and Mouse, his family. Would he have been able to save Chicago without that image to give him strength? Maybe, maybe not, but it does argue that parenting vs. wizardry doesn't have to be a question of either/or.

I keep seeing "well, Harry can't be the perfect parent," and yeah, that's probably true. But why does he have to be a perfect parent? Harry's not a perfect wizard either. He struggles, he makes mistakes, and he does the best he can. That keeps him relatable, and interesting. A perfect anything makes for a very boring story.

I get it, I do. It's a pretty huge change for the series, and it's different, and Harry being a parent just isn't going to appeal to some readers. And that's fine. It's definitely a tricky storyline to weave into the kind of major conflicts Harry's been facing lately, and I expect we're going to see Maggie shoved off-stage a lot over the rest of the series. We'll have to see whether or not it works out over the next few books, I guess.

--- End quote ---
Maybe not 24/7. But many frontline detectives, agents and defence personnel don't have much personal life because of the job. That's the a big part of the sacrifice. Harry is in that category. I don't disagree - Harry does deserve (as much as anyone can "deserve") a personal life. But it just isn't all that realistic. The less realistic Jim is within his universe, the harder it is to believe and relate to. I am not at all saying Maggie is meaningless to the story and certainly to Dresden. Part of what Jim likes Dresden to be is the guy who makes better choices in very difficult circumstances. In saying that, it closes down story lines and removes the potential for drama if Harry always makes the best choices. And that's what it comes down to as well: possibilities. Nothing worse than reading about people being happy and nothing going wrong. Conflict, and conflict resolution is what draws the reader in.  \

The Warrior is a great example of the fact that you can be good in your own way and fight the good fight. It is also a great example of the fact that stories are much more interesting with drama in them. If the Warrior had been an uneventful story about Harry and Michael going to a little league game and talking about the weather I doubt it even would have been written, let alone published. It's precisely why no one writes those stories. You would only create something like that as a scene to contrast against something darker. While spending quality time with Maggie might be an important contribution to the greater cosmic battle (although that seems a fairly arrogant proposition), if someone was being murdered out the front of his building I can't see Dresden just ignoring it to make pancakes. In point of fact, he deliberately doesn't ignore trouble.

Harry did hold onto the image of Maggie - but if there was no Maggie it could have been Murphy, or Susan, or his Dad etc. Jim went with Maggie because it made the most sense. I suspect it still would have been Maggie even if he wasn't being much of a parent though. I don't think him spending time with her makes all that much difference to how he feels about her, apart from guilt.

Not sure I saw anything about Harry being the perfect parent. I doubt even the exceptional Michael Carpenter wins that award. I think it's more about a question of what are realistic priorities and actions based on what we already know of Harry and what situation is going on around him. I agree, we don't want a perfect Harry. All any of us want is a realistic Harry. The moment he becomes unbelievable we can't relate, and therefore connect, and then we don't care anyway.

It's not Harry being a parent in and of itself that bothers me. It's the way it's been done and it's impact on the series. At any rate, I am of the opinion something has to change otherwise the story will continue to be dragged and become uninteresting. Quite right though, it's all just a wait and see.


--- Quote from: Bad Alias on December 02, 2020, 06:39:34 PM ---On the other hand, it's also really annoying when people have a kid, usually in a sitcom, and the kid is rarely if ever mentioned again. Instead of a chapter or whatever, it could be mentioned in a sentence. GS is a good example where Molly explains to Harry that Maggie is safe. That was maybe a paragraph.

The masquerade falling doesn't mean that everyone knows that St. Marks is part of the supernatural. Think of it more like 1492. After the discovery of a whole new set of continents and people, it took a while to figure out even pretty basic details. Like that it wasn't the far east.

That's the larger problem for me.

Depending on parenting style, Maggie either is or soon will be old enough to stay home by herself. If Castle Dresden is half as secure as Demonreach, that's a solution too. Especially considering she's going to have Mouse and two spirits of intellect around.

--- End quote ---
1. I get that. It all has to be dealt with the right way. I think it isn't unbelievable for Harry to become the absent father though, something he himself never thought he would be. Something he will hate about himself. I see it as Harry trying to be too perfect and Jim just trying to force it through. Harry can't be everything after all. It could even be a big part of his thoughts (Maggie, that is) without necessarily having to have the whole "I better take Maggie to school for picture day, oh wait I think a Demon Lord is attacking the Mayor of Chicago and the police". There are shows like Wallander which deal with detectives who are good at their job and what they do is very important, but it comes at the cost of their relationships. That's how it goes and that's why it's so often shown, because that's the truth. Anything else is somewhat absurd at best and frankly delusional at worst. It makes light of the struggle that people have trying to do the best they can.

2. Well, they might not. But I am sure the Librarians know. And even if not many know now they might work it out - "Hey what's that weird xmen school with all the weird kids" "No idea, but I did see a Griffyn on the roof and flashing lights" Scared people would probably burn it. You only have to look at the Inquisition or the Witch Trials to see what that did to societies. People wore muted colors in order to not be seen as too weird or strange. It was about fitting in and being "normal" and killing anything that would challenge the status quo. They have much better information gathering techniques and analysis than in 1492 I imagine. Also general knowledge is far better on average. It might still take a while for everyone to get on the level (although there are so many people out there ready to believe).

3. Yes I miss Mouse. But I think that Jim has decided Mouse is too powerful for current Dresden and needs Dresden to get beaten more.


--- Quote from: Mira on December 02, 2020, 07:06:35 PM ---Yet the existence of little Maggie and Mouse were pivotal in Harry's defeat of the Titan.  She almost won when Harry thought that little Maggie and the Carpenters were dead, but when Harry realized she wasn't it was his love for her and his visualization of both her and Mouse hugging him that kept his concentration and will in tact, along with the boost from the Spear, the Titan couldn't defeat that. 

--- End quote ---
Pivotal, yes. Essential, not necessarily. And Ethniu was heavily worn down. If Dresden wasn't there it's not like the Accorded Nations wouldn't have had a plan to defeat her. I guarantee if Ethniu hadn't been worn down Maggie and the spear would not have been enough.

Dina:
Yes, if Maggie were not existed there could be another McGuffin moving the plot and Harry would have defeated Ethniu by thinking on Thomas, Molly and all the Carpenters, the Knights, the Alphas, Mouse and Mister. Nothing weird with that.

Bad Alias:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on December 06, 2020, 03:31:06 AM ---It's precisely why no one writes those stories.
--- End quote ---
Apparently you're unfamiliar with Hallmark movies.


--- Quote from: Yuillegan on December 06, 2020, 03:31:06 AM ---Not sure I saw anything about Harry being the perfect parent.
--- End quote ---
I don't think perfect is the perfect word choice. Maybe something more like the typical idea of what makes a good parent. The whole being there for every soccer game is a good example. (Down below I realized we even have a phrase for this. Soccer mom. In Harry's case we should probably change it to soccer dad. Instead of Harry being a perfect dad, I think what everyone is driving at is Harry being a soccer dad). In a lot of fiction where being an insufficient parent is part of the story, I almost always see "so many missed birthdays and school plays" mentioned.

And as you said, Harry being that kind of parent is hard to believe. The problem Jim has created is that Harry just sending Maggie to boarding school is also hard to believe. I do think Jim has laid out everything he needs for a pretty easy solution though. He's set it up so there are multiple solutions for security. That's actually the easy part. (Michael's, Castle Dresden, SMAGT, Mouse).

He's also set it up where he can leave Maggie under proper supervision for long periods of time. If Jim was being more realistic about how much the diamonds should be worth and how it should be relatively easy for Harry to turn the diamonds into cash, goods, and/or services, a nanny with sufficient knowledge of the supernatural should be easy enough to come by. That would let Harry have someone there full time so he could be a soccer dad until something comes up. He would be able to just take off. Kind of how it went down in Zoo Day, but with some adult supervision.

I'm not so sure people would figure out St. Mark's so quickly. In I Was a Teenage Bigfoot, a lot of the faculty and staff didn't seem to be aware of the supernatural. (Or equipped to handle it). With the masquerade crumbling/crumbled, they could probably up their game on that and bolster security to deal with rowdy townsfolk.

While I think you maybe right about why Mouse has been sidelined, I also think "Mouse is too powerful" is kind of stupid. He isn't Superman in some Justice League story where once he gets there everything is all of a sudden easy. In any given scene, he hasn't tipped the balance in Harry's favor much more than other characters like Michael, Thomas, or Murphy.

Dina:
I agree, specially about Mouse.

CrusherJen:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on December 06, 2020, 03:31:06 AM ---But it just isn't all that realistic. The less realistic Jim is within his universe, the harder it is to believe and relate to.
--- End quote ---


--- Quote ---I agree, we don't want a perfect Harry. All any of us want is a realistic Harry. The moment he becomes unbelievable we can't relate, and therefore connect, and then we don't care anyway.
--- End quote ---


I think realistic and believable are in the eye of the reader. I don't think it's unrealistic for an orphan with abandonment issues to at least try to give his daughter some semblance of a parent and a family life. Will it work out, or will Harry fail? That remains to be seen. Relatability is another personal issue. My own ability to connect to a parenting storyline is limited, since I never had kids, but I can still appreciate a well-told story about it. I feel like it's too early to make a judgement call on how it's gonna work out in the end, but that's my take. I appreciate that others feel differently. YMMV.


--- Quote ---...it closes down story lines and removes the potential for drama if Harry always makes the best choices. And that's what it comes down to as well: possibilities. Nothing worse than reading about people being happy and nothing going wrong. Conflict, and conflict resolution is what draws the reader in.
--- End quote ---

I have a feeling that a conflict between parental responsibility and Harry's professional obligations will continue to be part of the storyline, unless Maggie spends most of each novel at her school. Which might happen, and would resolve a lot of people's worries. Again, we'll see. But I can't imagine we'll ever get Harry in a happy little world where nothing ever goes wrong and he never makes a single mistake. Jim likes to torture him far too much.  ;D


--- Quote ---I see it as Harry trying to be too perfect and Jim just trying to force it through. Harry can't be everything after all. It could even be a big part of his thoughts (Maggie, that is) without necessarily having to have the whole "I better take Maggie to school for picture day, oh wait I think a Demon Lord is attacking the Mayor of Chicago and the police". There are shows like Wallander which deal with detectives who are good at their job and what they do is very important, but it comes at the cost of their relationships. That's how it goes and that's why it's so often shown, because that's the truth. Anything else is somewhat absurd at best and frankly delusional at worst. It makes light of the struggle that people have trying to do the best they can.
--- End quote ---


I get the point, even if I don't entirely agree. I think Harry will struggle with the balancing act of personal vs. professional. Most people do in one way or another. Many try to take on too much at once, trying to be perfect, and wind up fumbling their way through, even failing in areas. It may be absurd, but the attempt in itself doesn't feel unrealistic or "making light of struggles" to me. (If he succeeds perfectly, yeah, but I don't see that happening.) I guess I look more for a well-told tale than for complete realism in my reading, especially when it's fiction. (Seriously... we're talking about a wizard. Can we really expect complete realism here?? :o ::) ;D )

It's all relative, of course. I can't blame anyone for not liking the current turn of events. The longer a series goes, the harder it is to keep quality high. I've seen more than one saga collapse under its own weight, and I'm really hoping that won't happen with the Dresden Files. So maybe I'm being more optimistic than I should be... but I really want to see Jim pull it off.

And more Mouse. Always more Mouse. Mister too.  ;D ;D ;D

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