The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Zoo day

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Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: forumghost on December 02, 2020, 01:32:32 AM ---Not SG "In a Way" The only reason Harry agreed to be a part of that was because Mab held the Parasite over Maggie head as a threat. (Incidentally, good job Heavenly retirement package. No use against mortals, no use against Spirits of Intellect, no use against mortals that have been given Formor upgrades (Listen) really, what are you even paid for?)

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Yeah it does seem odd. But tbh, I think that's the point. If you're in the mortal world the truly mortal things can get you. I doubt Bonnea would have got through into the Carpenters even without Angels though. More likely a hit on the way to school. But, for some reason the Carpenter house is always protected from the worst. Might be that Heaven nudges things so that the worst never quite gets through. And the spiritual beings are the ones who can break the rules and do all kinds of horrible stuff, hence the need for Angels I suppose.


--- Quote from: TheCuriousFan on December 02, 2020, 12:44:56 AM ---And this is why she'll be at St. Marks boarding school for most of the year.

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Sort of runs against being the perfect Dad thing though. It's not a bad solution, but it isn't the best either.


--- Quote from: Snark Knight on December 02, 2020, 12:31:48 AM ---Only in a specifically personal way in Changes. SG in a way, but Harry would have hauled ass as fast as he could if it was 'just' the entire Carpenter family and the archangel at risk of being murdered too. Otherwise it's been an extra dimension of not wanting the city to get blown up because his daughter is in it.

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One would think that he wouldn't want to city blown up regardless of his daughter...pre-Changes Harry felt that way.


--- Quote from: pcpoet on December 02, 2020, 12:23:13 AM ---speaking as a 55 year old man who never got married and never had kids. I love it when Butcher  writes about being father.  I am very aware that I am in a minority and my enjoyment comes from my desire to have been a parent at some point in my life.    I like it but story wise for the series it does not fit. years ago Mr Butcher said he wrote Susan out of Harrys  life because it created a trap to fall into with his writing. The trope of Susan being the damsel in distress that harry has to save every book she is in.  Maggie is the same sort of trap.

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It's poignant writing, sure. Jim's good at what he does and clearly has the life experience to draw from. But as you say, Maggie has become the same sort of issue in the story as Susan. I suspect Jim couldn't like Dresden as much if Harry was a bad parent. But I wonder if he could come up with a solution that perhaps involves all his allies bunkering down in a sort-of sanctuary, during the end times. Who knows?


--- Quote from: morriswalters on December 01, 2020, 07:12:44 PM --- Let's remember what Jim has done to his child protagonists starting with Harry and Thomas.  He turns Thomas into a Vampire.  He puts Harry in the system and then gives him to Justin and forces him to fight his way out.  His mother was abused by Ebenezer. Molly was kidnapped and taken to Arctis Tor.  Maggie was kidnapped by the Reds and a whole family keeping her was dismembered by the Reds. And last but not least the Carpenter children have been attacked multiple times as recently as Skin Games. And now he is being pawned off to Lara.  I wouldn't eat any Turkey at that table during the Holidays. Grandpa is a one man death squad, step Mom eats people, and the Wicked Faeries get a seat at the table. Thanksgiving plan.  Snatch a drumstick and try not to get eaten. ;)

Anyway I know I'm an outlier about this. But it is what it is.

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If you're an outlier then so am I. I tell you what, better to be part of a nice boring family than such a dangerous one. People tend to romanticize it a bit too much.


--- Quote from: Bad Alias on December 01, 2020, 06:36:28 PM ---Which Michael alluded to in the first couple of chapters of GP.
I think that probably has to do with a lot of real world propaganda, most directed at girls, that one can "have it all." There's just not enough hours in the day to "go to every soccer game" and be at the pinnacle of your field.
He could ship her off to boarding school right there in Chicago, which is kinda the choice everyone is implying he would have to make anyway. Also, Jim has said that's what Harry's going to do.

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Grave Peril was 20 years ago...his perspective might have changed a bit since then. Couldn't agree more - it's the whole idea that not only can one "have it all" but you should in fact "have it all" and do it all! An impossible and frankly absurd notion. If you replace Harry's job as a wizard as a CIA agent or special forces soldier, it would be both insane and unfair to assume he could also be the ultimate suburban good parent. Harry does fine with the time he has, but there is always a cost to those choices. We just might not see all those results just yet. It's what the whole series is about really. 


--- Quote from: morriswalters on December 01, 2020, 01:19:13 PM ---Michael had a wife and Angels to watch over his family.  Harry has zero sane family.  Peace Talks shows exactly how it will happen each and every time.  There will be an obligatory, I must get Maggie out of harms way chapter.  It was dumb in Peace Talks and will never be less dumb going forward. And there is no way for Jim to duck on it.  He did it and he's stuck with it. And I don't think there will be a successful children's series out of it. Bluntly Zoo Day was wooden and stilted.

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Agreed. But I do hope Jim's editor tells him that it's a bit stale and needs to be fixed. He cannot keep shoehorning in a chapter about getting Maggie to safety every time. And the boarding school idea is only a temporary solution. What happens when the masquerade falls?

TheCuriousFan:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on December 02, 2020, 03:03:11 AM ---Sort of runs against being the perfect Dad thing though. It's not a bad solution, but it isn't the best either.

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But it is what is happening, for the majority of the year it'll be entirely doable have stories without the whole leave Maggie behind bit or her being targeted yet again. Though I suspect your issues are at least part of how he's griped about how Harry having Maggie does cause some problems.

Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: TheCuriousFan on December 02, 2020, 04:17:19 AM ---But it is what is happening, for the majority of the year it'll be entirely doable have stories without the whole leave Maggie behind bit or her being targeted yet again. Though I suspect your issues are at least part of how he's griped about how Harry having Maggie does cause some problems.

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Jim just needs to make a big decision on what sort of series he wants. Can't have both "world is getting worse building to an apocalypse" and "Harry the good Dad but also fighter of supernatural threats". It's a bit late in the day for that. Tbh, he probably should have written in Maggie much earlier. Would have given him more time.

CrusherJen:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on December 01, 2020, 06:36:10 AM ---Indeed, there is downtime. But what is Dresden ignoring so he can look after his daughter? Guarantee that he hasn't been as involved as he could have been. Almost certainly things have slid a bit in some areas. His White Council relationship might have been better had he spent more time working with them.

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But that assumes Harry is obsessed with Wizarding duties 24/7, and I find that wholly and completely unrealistic. Harry deserves a personal life, as much as anyone else with an extremely important job. Sure, there may be some tradeoffs in some areas, but I wouldn't dismiss raising a daughter (who is also a potential wizard and if so, will benefit from seeing a good example) as unimportant or meaningless. As the short story "The Warrior" reminds us, the battle of good and evil is fought on many different levels, from huge battles to small, seemingly insignificant interactions between people. So loving and spending time with Maggie can be a contribution, as much as slinging spells or swinging a staff. It's certainly proven a strong motivation for him to fight for the world, and to win. What image did Harry hold on to in order to withstand Ethniu's attack of Will? Holding Maggie and Mouse, his family. Would he have been able to save Chicago without that image to give him strength? Maybe, maybe not, but it does argue that parenting vs. wizardry doesn't have to be a question of either/or.

I keep seeing "well, Harry can't be the perfect parent," and yeah, that's probably true. But why does he have to be a perfect parent? Harry's not a perfect wizard either. He struggles, he makes mistakes, and he does the best he can. That keeps him relatable, and interesting. A perfect anything makes for a very boring story.

I get it, I do. It's a pretty huge change for the series, and it's different, and Harry being a parent just isn't going to appeal to some readers. And that's fine. It's definitely a tricky storyline to weave into the kind of major conflicts Harry's been facing lately, and I expect we're going to see Maggie shoved off-stage a lot over the rest of the series. We'll have to see whether or not it works out over the next few books, I guess.

Dina:
Pretty much. I understand it can work in the series and it's a good motivation. I just don't like it, never did, and I wish Maggie never had existed. Also, as a lesser problem, Maggie steals Mouse from us.

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